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  • #31
    You do realize that we also didn't live through the depression and two global wars so most people have a chance to actually invest in their future at this point in the country.

    And we create the cures and medicines and all the other countries get to use it, we front the ridiculous fucking cost while others don't. It is like the United Nations and Nato of Medicine you realize.
    Last edited by kthx; 10-12-2017, 02:12 PM.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Jessup View Post
      ... We do not have socialized medicine here. We have private for profit health insurance companies putting their sticky fingers into everything. That is the difference and why Americans have such a wasteful spending system that costs us like over 5 times the cost of other countries and why we rank LAST in 1st world countries with it.
      Seriously? You are simply wrong. I posted two examples of socialized medicine in the US; dialysis and the VA. I will repeat it for you, since 1975 ALL End Stage Renal patients are given dialysis treatments for free. We all go to one of two companies which get paid by Medicare. Since 1975 any kidney failure patient has had full, free access to dialysis services without any cost; all paid for by taxpayers. If that is not socialized medicine then explain to me what you think it is.
      Eph

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      • #33
        Hey Eph, you should have gone to London, they would have told you that there was no monetary sense to try to fix your cancer since you had a high likelihood of dying and forced you to stay there and die like Charlie Gard. Socialized medicine is the fucking awesomost man.,
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
          We all go to one of two companies which get paid by Medicare.Eph
          This is NOT single payer and is still using for profit insurance companies to soak up costs in healthcare making it more expensive and less efficient. Sure the USA has some itty bitty sprinklings of socialism involved in healthcare for the VA and I will concede dialysis patients but it is being implemented totally wrong. We must get rid of health insurance companies. We don't need middlemen absconding with our money making profit on sickness and death. I suggest you do research into countries like Australia and how their healthcare system works. I know a girl who snapped her lower legbone femur in half , had to get surgury with rods and pins installed..she had rehab/the works.. Total cost out of her pocket was 15 dollars and she was rushed into surgery immediately. That makes americans do headspins and they can't even believe it and say it is a lie and impossible.. but it is what happens there and could be for every american too.
          Last edited by Jessup; 10-12-2017, 02:39 PM.
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          • #35
            The VA is single payer, the government literally pays for it with our taxes and it is fucking garbage, it is terrible, and it is a disgrace. And keep in mind when some little girl in Australia has a simple surgery she goes there, but when the Australian PM needs a brain tumor removed, or to have advanced cancer care, he comes to the United States like all the other rich and powerful people in the world.
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            • #36
              Sure Saudi Princes and Australian PM's come here. We have the best medical care in the world if you pay a cool million bucks. If you are an average every day joe though or a poor person.. no way in hell they can afford it.. This isn't about the rich .. it is about the people left behind.
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              • #37
                Sure you can, if you have insurance lol. My mom died from Ovarian cancer but not before trying an experimental cancer treatment, a bone marrow transplant. Cost about 500,000 not including all the after care. Insurance covered it. Those evil insurance companies did what my dad had paid them to do its weird right.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                  This is NOT single payer and is still using for profit insurance companies to soak up costs in healthcare making it more expensive and less efficient. Sure the USA has some itty bitty sprinklings of socialism involved in healthcare for the VA and I will concede dialysis patients but it is being implemented totally wrong. We must get rid of health insurance companies. We don't need middlemen absconding with our money making profit on sickness and death. I suggest you do research into countries like Australia and how their healthcare system works. I know a girl who snapped her lower legbone femur in half , had to get surgury with rods and pins installed..she had rehab/the works.. Total cost out of her pocket was 15 dollars and she was rushed into surgery immediately. That makes americans do headspins and they can't even believe it and say it is a lie and impossible.. but it is what happens there and could be for every american too.
                  The issue is NOT insurance companies, it is a lack of competition. If the issue was the insurance companies than any segment of our society which used insurance would be screwed up. Ares auto insurance costs spiraling out of control? No. Do your home owners insurance cost climb every year by 50% or 75%? No.

                  When you have a car accident or a tree falls on your house what happens? You get three quotes and the insurance company pays the lowest one. If you are having a baby, do you get competitive quotes from the hospitals? No. Of course emergency situations are a bit different but the majority of medical costs in USA do not come from emergency procedures.

                  Here is how socialized medicine works in the US, it has NOTHING to do with insurance companies. The two dialysis provider negotiate with Medicare each year on how much they can charge for the services. They push for increases and try to justify their incredible profits, bad service and patient deaths. Medicare pushes back and does not give them what they ask for to cover what they deem the minimal patient care. So they have a set amount they can charge, end of story. With the amount they can charge set in stone, they only thing they can do is cut costs with less staff, less care. They have ZERO incentive to improve, they have ZERO competitive pressure for the patient market OR the specialized healthcare employees. The CEO of DaVita gave a speech to Harvard MBAs and compared his company to running a Taco Bell.

                  And it terms of total medical costs, do you know what attributes for over 1/3 of medical costs each year in the USA? The final few weeks of a patient life. That’s right, the incredible high cost of ECU care and other ‘life saving’ procedures that we attempt when your 85 year old mother is lying there dying. I can understand spending this on a 20 something person in a car accident of something, but why are we spending so much on elderly people? Give us some fucking morphine, let us die, stop trying to extend a highly questionable quality of life.
                  Eph

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
                    The issue is NOT insurance companies, it is a lack of competition. If the issue was the insurance companies than any segment of our society which used insurance would be screwed up. Ares auto insurance costs spiraling out of control? No. Do your home owners insurance cost climb every year by 50% or 75%? No.

                    When you have a car accident or a tree falls on your house what happens? You get three quotes and the insurance company pays the lowest one. If you are having a baby, do you get competitive quotes from the hospitals? No. Of course emergency situations are a bit different but the majority of medical costs in USA do not come from emergency procedures.

                    Here is how socialized medicine works in the US, it has NOTHING to do with insurance companies. The two dialysis provider negotiate with Medicare each year on how much they can charge for the services. They push for increases and try to justify their incredible profits, bad service and patient deaths. Medicare pushes back and does not give them what they ask for to cover what they deem the minimal patient care. So they have a set amount they can charge, end of story. With the amount they can charge set in stone, they only thing they can do is cut costs with less staff, less care. They have ZERO incentive to improve, they have ZERO competitive pressure for the patient market OR the specialized healthcare employees. The CEO of DaVita gave a speech to Harvard MBAs and compared his company to running a Taco Bell.

                    And it terms of total medical costs, do you know what attributes for over 1/3 of medical costs each year in the USA? The final few weeks of a patient life. That’s right, the incredible high cost of ECU care and other ‘life saving’ procedures that we attempt when your 85 year old mother is lying there dying. I can understand spending this on a 20 something person in a car accident of something, but why are we spending so much on elderly people? Give us some fucking morphine, let us die, stop trying to extend a highly questionable quality of life.
                    Eph
                    https://imgur.com/gallery/fdNZh
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by kthx View Post
                      I did mean Adam Smith actually, been awhile since I studied any of this to be honest.

                      The problem in all of this is of course energy you know. People are pushing for a form of government that can't exist yet, pushing for rights that are feasible yet. We can't give everyone in the world free healthcare, we can't give everyone in the world a living salary where they don't have to work. We don't have the energy available to us yet to take the next step our civilization is ready to take. My point still stands on what I said originally. All forms of government eventually devolve into a select few in power having everything because it is human nature. But, I would say we have had a pretty good run so far here, as opposed to like well, certain South American countries.
                      What's weird here is that it's exactly this "we don't live in a world of infinite energy and resources" thing that has pushed me left.

                      For example: there aren't infinite jobs and there aren't infinite markets. At some point, economic growth will be impossible. At some point, employing everyone - even employing a majority of people - will be impossible.

                      Here's the cold hard facts that have me considering alternatives to capitalism:
                      -When America was "discovered" it was basically an empty continent chock full of resources
                      -As Americans colonized and industry sprang up, more people were needed since the continent was (virtually) empty
                      -Thus, wages rose to entice foreigners to come to America
                      -Population rises
                      -As this is all happening, innovation is 1) increasing individual worker productivity while 2) reducing the amount of workers needed for each new job (ie you might need 100 workers for a car factory in 1900, but by 1950 you only need 50 workers to produce the same output)

                      As far as I can tell, with the information at hand, I would say that around 1970, something happened never before seen in the US: the number of people finally eclipsed the number of jobs avaliable.

                      It's interesting to consider this because what would be some of the implications of this happening?
                      -Wages will stagnate. If there's more than enough people, you don't have to raise wages to entice them. If a worker doesn't like their wages, fuck em, you can hire someone else. https://i.imgur.com/xFKmPMg.png
                      -With wages stagnating, households need to increase their income. So what happens? Women, traditionally stay-at-home moms, begin entering the workforce.
                      -Knowing there's too many people, sentiments turn inward and nationalist, with hostilities being directed at foreigners. Sound familiar?

                      So how does the "system" keep going? CREDIT, BABY! After 1970, the average credit debt of households skyrocket. Yeah workers' wages had stagnated, but lifestyles were maintained with credit. Of course, at some point the creditors start calling in, and when the defaults happen, you see recessions, increasingly destabilizing recessions. So what does the data look like? Well, it's interesting to see the swings after 1970: https://i.imgur.com/HH7HuWG.png

                      A further point to explore is the fact that the united states is the ONLY capitalist country to experience a straight, 200-year period of growth accompanies by rising wages. Why? Since virtually every other capitalist country has never had such a streak I don't think it's capitalism. So we return to that initial fact: at its discovery, the continent was virtually empty and filled with resources. We experienced growth because capital needed labor, and wages rose correspondingly. We're past that now, and the heyday of capitalism is over.

                      Was it great? Hell yeah, did living standards increase? You betcha, but hey, even feudal serfs were better off than the slaves that preceded them, but that's no reason in-of-itself to have continued to perpetuate the feudal system.

                      I believe that if we keep relying on the same narrative and accepted ideas that have been at the heart of the American culture for over two centuries, we're gonna have a bad time. The material conditions of our society have changed, capital is no longer the magical life-improving system we took for granted between 1850-1970.
                      Last edited by Jerome Scuggs; 10-12-2017, 04:24 PM.
                      The Phase > what version of ssc are you guys running?
                      Criminal> idk whatever was on the first google result for "piece of shit spaceship game from 96 free download"


                      Originally posted by Leland
                      lol lo l oo lo l ol olol o lo l ol o lo l o


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
                        Here is how socialized medicine works in the US, it has NOTHING to do with insurance companies.
                        I would argue that it very much has everything to do with insurance companies. It's a massive industry that makes massive profits, and all it is is basically a middle man. Look at specific regulatory and legal pushes, and every step of the way you will see insurance lobbyists interfering. They don't give a shit about anything but their bottom line, and if ruining healthcare improves profits, so be it. In particular the "obamacare repeal" would have seen some ~10 or 20million Americans kicked off their insurance, but also included in the bill were tax cuts and kickbacks totalling some half-billion dollars to the insurance companies. They literally don't give a shit about anything but being paid.
                        The Phase > what version of ssc are you guys running?
                        Criminal> idk whatever was on the first google result for "piece of shit spaceship game from 96 free download"


                        Originally posted by Leland
                        lol lo l oo lo l ol olol o lo l ol o lo l o


                        420 420 420
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                        • #42
                          But I think this leads to something deeper: for a long time, "profit motive" has been associated with "improving peoples' lives." IE yeah these companies are greedy, but historically we've seen that businesses have done great things for people in the name of profit.

                          I would argue this is no longer the case. Businesses no longer have to improve lives to make money. Hell, they barely even have to produce. Does Uber produce/provide the cars their employees drive? Does AirBnB produce/provide the houses people rent out? Hell no, they've found ways to insert themselves between a person and their own capital to grift a little off the top. We're reaching the sort of advanced, late-stage capitalism that Marx wrote about, and we all laughed at him for quite some time because until recently, the grifting was never so blatantly obvious and in our face.
                          The Phase > what version of ssc are you guys running?
                          Criminal> idk whatever was on the first google result for "piece of shit spaceship game from 96 free download"


                          Originally posted by Leland
                          lol lo l oo lo l ol olol o lo l ol o lo l o


                          420 420 420
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                          123

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                          • #43
                            1. Well the answer is obvious but you can't see it. Space exploration, colonization, asteroid mining etc is the next step.

                            2. holy fuck you are a really bad leftist now, you want to compare the rise of Trump to the rise of Hitler in part 3 there my god LOL. Securing your own border against ILLEGAL immigrants isn't what trump did, we aren't folding in upon ourselves as a nation, we are trying to stop the bleeding from a flood of ridiculously expensive to care for individuals. If anything Merkel is more likely to be the next Hitler, considering her love of muslims and knowing that Hitler wished that his army were made of Muslims. Also trying to push around other sovereign nations to do the UN's bidding.

                            3. You are basically trying to say this is late stage capitalism but what you don't see is what you already said. Anyone born here has the ability in themselves to do whatever they want, a serf wouldn't become a lord most likely, but even someone born in the ghetto can change his own life if he wants. That is what this country is founded on, self determination. That will never die.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jerome Scuggs View Post
                              But I think this leads to something deeper: for a long time, "profit motive" has been associated with "improving peoples' lives." IE yeah these companies are greedy, but historically we've seen that businesses have done great things for people in the name of profit.

                              I would argue this is no longer the case. Businesses no longer have to improve lives to make money. Hell, they barely even have to produce. Does Uber produce/provide the cars their employees drive? Does AirBnB produce/provide the houses people rent out? Hell no, they've found ways to insert themselves between a person and their own capital to grift a little off the top. We're reaching the sort of advanced, late-stage capitalism that Marx wrote about, and we all laughed at him for quite some time because until recently, the grifting was never so blatantly obvious and in our face.
                              How exactly is it airbnb or lyfts fault that they created a service that a person who offers something and someone who wants something together, that isn't late stage capitalism or anything Marx talked about it is a modern marketplace.
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jerome Scuggs View Post
                                I would argue that it very much has everything to do with insurance companies. It's a massive industry that makes massive profits, and all it is is basically a middle man. Look at specific regulatory and legal pushes, and every step of the way you will see insurance lobbyists interfering. They don't give a shit about anything but their bottom line, and if ruining healthcare improves profits, so be it. In particular the "obamacare repeal" would have seen some ~10 or 20million Americans kicked off their insurance, but also included in the bill were tax cuts and kickbacks totalling some half-billion dollars to the insurance companies. They literally don't give a shit about anything but being paid.

                                Obamacare repeal is going to do the same thing as not repealing Obamacare, it is purposefully shitty to implode upon itself to create a single payer system of health insurance for America, it was designed to fail purposefully, which is why it ended up making a majority of people pay MORE for it. You can't force a company to randomly start giving a cancer patient insured chemo medicine when they haven't paid into the company for it for the last 6 months or 20 years. Obamacare was a disaster, and there are plenty of people who WANT to not have to pay for insurance because they are young and healthy. The obamacare mandate made them pay into it for the old people. It was a disaster and your numbers are ridiculously skewed.
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