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  • #61
    twd and twdt are meant to be the inclusive leagues. on top of that twdt is meant to be as balanced as possible. twl is not meant to be all inclusive or balanced. twl isnt meant to be the league where you get better, youre already supposed to be good once youre there. it could easily be argued that the amount of active people cant effectively support a good twl, i can understand that reasoning just fine. the problem isnt stacking on twl teams, the problem is there arent enough people to support multiple good teams any longer. taking what is left and trying to create 8 'equal' or 'balanced' teams to compete in twl is probably one of the stupidest ideas that consistently gets floated around on the forums.

    it all boils down to game population, it isnt what it used to be. you can argue that twl is no longer as good as it once was, and that is fine. changing twl to match the population though isnt a good option. twl is about the best 2d spaceship pilots competing, dont mess with that. the fragile population we have left is mostly buoyed by the vets that have played for a long time and theyre the ones you accuse of 'stacking.' its not some social responsibility to make a competitive league here. once again, that isnt what twl is about. i think most would agree that winning the title isnt as prestigious as it once was when we had 10+ squads in each league with many being competitive.

    newer/less good players are at a disadvantage with regards to twl. its understood that youre not going to make an impact on a high level team and joining a team that you can start for will probably just net some losses. that isnt a big deal in itself, its just the way of it. unfortunately, the fact there are less people makes it far more difficult to ascend to the ranks of being 'good' and breaking into the starting lines of 'good' squads.
    sigpic

    1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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    • #62
      also i would have to agree that the squads look to be more balanced than theyve been in years past.
      sigpic

      1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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      • #63
        I think its also important to recognize there is still a lot of movement day to day with roster changes. Theres likely to be some changes that make squads a little better or a little worse to ?even? things out.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Falconeer View Post

          I don't think it's about being a snowflake, I made plenty of squads in tough leagues. My squads never won because I didn't grab players from a pool of known veterans. Instead I grabbed the overlooked, neglected, discarded players. Then my squads and me were "trolled" and "attacked" for being easy. Next year I made a new squad. If anything this is the opposite of being a snowflake. That is grit and helping the community in the face of adversity and challenging odds. Though to be fair some guys pixel text online is hardly adversity for me. Notice I'm not the one ignoring people and raging at them for having opinions/typing. Though I do respond unfiltered sometimes.

          I don't think people want titles, and those who do, don't want them on a silver platter. You bring up the NFL, but the NFL isn't struggling with 30-40 year old players. In most sports 30 is already past your prime, people start families and don't have as much time as they used to. We are also a game not getting new players, imagine if the NFL didn't get new players, and zero kids from the next generation were interested in football? In baseball we already have some teams who lose year after year, while one team keeps winning because they have 1) more time 2) more money 3) greater access to the veterans.

          You don't say fuck the systemic issues, and just work hard. If that's how life was, you would probably revolt against the government, because some people would be working harder than others. You are all blind to how hard someone else has to work compared to you. And that's the problem. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes then come and talk.

          So there are two solutions to stacking. 1) fix the game and get new players 2) the pro players and captains step up and realize in a dying game they can help newer squads.

          Seems like there is resistance to 2, and having a "pro elite league" only helps to ensure 1 doesn't happen while keeping the veteran core players happy.

          Not one person here said they would help out new players, new squads, or stop joining thunder/rage and other top squads year after year (break the mould) to try a new squad or meet new people/make new friends. Not one. And that's the problem. No one wants to risk or step up to help. Instead it's SNOWFLAKE, EZ, GIT GUD SON. GG. Just a bunch of people who want to troll and elevate themselves for being good in a game.

          I'm literally asking you guys after 5 medals, and titles, and wins, help some new up-and-coming squad out. That's all i'm saying here.


          ok.. i never post or care to but this is just too silly now... i saw this post the other day and brushed it off but clearly its got a lot of attention.

          its 2019 subspace.. population is low.. its hard to get into this game this late and play at the higher level. when i first started i was always denied entry into go base and the only times i got to play in a bd was with public assassin or rucci trying to train me, but even then the captains back then were not excited on my playing (this is 2005). i understand where you come from with people talking down to your new player/lower tier squad, it doesn't make sense at all.. pretty sad actually that people still do it.

          you say to fix the game, that would be the best option for obvious reasons but that's not going to happen.
          you say the pro players and capts need to step up to help the newer squads. as a community, for a few years during the major decline, has been trying to assist newer squads. there were a handful of new player squads that were formed by some vets and tried to make it work out but when a league like twl came around, they wanted to play for the team that will be competitive. I used to help out with these new players squads but there is only so much most of the experienced vets can do without ruining their motivation to continue playing.

          i used to voice my opinion a lot about actual squad stacking years ago when it was actually an issue during the major decline. the obvious squads were always with 2-3 full twl lines, regardless of skill but still twl calibur lines. now tho, its different. yes people still care about this otherwise there wouldn't be any players in the zone, but most of the vets just wanna log in and play quality games, regardless of win/loss. one thing i never understood back when stacking was an issue is why the active players on the stacked squads would rather bench and obtain this ring than get playing time on a squad with less chance of winning and go for gold.

          just looking at thunders squad list, they have only 16 players and yes they are all strong players but this isn't really the stacking like it used to be. you suggest people to leave their squad to even the playing field and play with less experienced/skilled players to create more teams, that's what twdt is for (which is another story).. you can argue that you can make multiple line ups for dd/jd for certain squads but unless you are certain these 5 people going to show up every weekend for the squad you would potentially make from these "stacked" squads, that's a risk that most if not all captains won't take..

          this " "pro elite league" " is mainly the reason why most people want to play this game and for most of the older names to come back.

          I don't want to say we shouldn't have to baby the new players but the climb is real and most of us had to do it. if you are a squad captain with newer players/less experienced players, you need to find a new way to get better and learn, otherwise there wont be any real underdog teams like potenza or boss was years ago.

          i just joined violence and were building a 3 league squad to create more competition. there are multiple squads that were just created not too long ago to bring more action to the dueling portion of twl, which is fantastic. the more squads that are created for these smaller line up leagues, the more play time people will have. so if you wanna create a squad with only 5 people, no ones stopping you but dont suggest vets to leave squads to make it easier for newer players in the league we care about the most, that doesn't make it right.

          edit: i didn't really read this whole thread and don't really want to, but i'm just responding to this and a few other messages i saw/read.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Zeebu View Post
            twd and twdt are meant to be the inclusive leagues. twl is not meant to be all inclusive or balanced.
            twl has impacted twd rosters so twd is not functioning as an inclusive league.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by mean gene View Post



              ok.. i never post or care to but this is just too silly now... i saw this post the other day and brushed it off but clearly its got a lot of attention.

              its 2019 subspace.. population is low.. its hard to get into this game this late and play at the higher level. when i first started i was always denied entry into go base and the only times i got to play in a bd was with public assassin or rucci trying to train me, but even then the captains back then were not excited on my playing (this is 2005). i understand where you come from with people talking down to your new player/lower tier squad, it doesn't make sense at all.. pretty sad actually that people still do it.

              you say to fix the game, that would be the best option for obvious reasons but that's not going to happen.
              you say the pro players and capts need to step up to help the newer squads. as a community, for a few years during the major decline, has been trying to assist newer squads. there were a handful of new player squads that were formed by some vets and tried to make it work out but when a league like twl came around, they wanted to play for the team that will be competitive. I used to help out with these new players squads but there is only so much most of the experienced vets can do without ruining their motivation to continue playing.

              i used to voice my opinion a lot about actual squad stacking years ago when it was actually an issue during the major decline. the obvious squads were always with 2-3 full twl lines, regardless of skill but still twl calibur lines. now tho, its different. yes people still care about this otherwise there wouldn't be any players in the zone, but most of the vets just wanna log in and play quality games, regardless of win/loss. one thing i never understood back when stacking was an issue is why the active players on the stacked squads would rather bench and obtain this ring than get playing time on a squad with less chance of winning and go for gold.

              just looking at thunders squad list, they have only 16 players and yes they are all strong players but this isn't really the stacking like it used to be. you suggest people to leave their squad to even the playing field and play with less experienced/skilled players to create more teams, that's what twdt is for (which is another story).. you can argue that you can make multiple line ups for dd/jd for certain squads but unless you are certain these 5 people going to show up every weekend for the squad you would potentially make from these "stacked" squads, that's a risk that most if not all captains won't take..

              this " "pro elite league" " is mainly the reason why most people want to play this game and for most of the older names to come back.

              I don't want to say we shouldn't have to baby the new players but the climb is real and most of us had to do it. if you are a squad captain with newer players/less experienced players, you need to find a new way to get better and learn, otherwise there wont be any real underdog teams like potenza or boss was years ago.

              i just joined violence and were building a 3 league squad to create more competition. there are multiple squads that were just created not too long ago to bring more action to the dueling portion of twl, which is fantastic. the more squads that are created for these smaller line up leagues, the more play time people will have. so if you wanna create a squad with only 5 people, no ones stopping you but dont suggest vets to leave squads to make it easier for newer players in the league we care about the most, that doesn't make it right.

              edit: i didn't really read this whole thread and don't really want to, but i'm just responding to this and a few other messages i saw/read.
              Well I'll acknowledge your point and defer to you that stacking was probably worse in the past. I have no reason to doubt your word on that. Fact is I never played trench wars or inspected the league lineups being made 5 or 10 years ago because I was in DSB.

              I don't actually agree that stacking in TW is insanely bad, nowhere have I even mentioned it is. I approached this from a person who has experience making squads in different leagues where stacking was a problem; where it was a danger to league, to the long term interests of vets/pros, and noobs alike, and to the zone. So I will say stacking is not bad in TW but it's not gone either, and I would say squads still lean more toward stacking. As many have pointed out 4 squads that could win the championship is actually a good number out of 8 squads. It's not as if it's 2 squads or 1 squad that we can predict will win right from the get-go. But the problem I am referring to is more about the gap between the top squads and the rest of the squads. The gap is too big which tells me people are more often deciding to play with their friends for a third year? fifth year? tenth year? or more often deciding to stick with the same good players they have always played with... rather than taking more risks at this point in time in the game, in 2019.

              You guys have every right to play with your friends, and stick with the same players for an easier league. But if you have some inclination to help new squads, to meet or play with different people, to contribute more to the zone than just talking about how pro you are, then the zone and the league would benefit from you sharing your skills with other teams. And besides don't you want more of a challenge by now? It would be nice to see people bragging in game how they revived the game instead of doing some self circle jerk about how great a player they are with the same 20 people, it's getting stale... it gets old, and the game continues to die.

              Remember this is a very valid point I made earlier: Someone on a bad team for years, will likely end up practicing bad habits because they have no good examples near them of how to play well. Without pro players lending their skills to newer squads, the stacking problem will only get worse over time. You won't have new players to recruit. Sure people can learn to play on their own, but in a team game it requires a good team to learn faster. Unless you want to wait 10 years for 1 guy to get good so then you can grow the league? And remember we're all not 14 anymore, people don't have time like they used to, so you can't really bring arguments of "WELL WHEN I WAS A BOY" into it since it's a totally diff situation now... what are you? grandpa simpson? :P

              The only response I can give is Stripes was making the squad Under City, and the squad died, about 15 players were recruited out of it by other teams, no one really stepped up to ensure there was another squad in at least one of the leagues. This is evidence that the dynamic in the game has issues. It's not easy to make a new squad, and people are far from supportive. To deny that creating and recruiting for squads successfully is largely about social position, influence, and image in the zone... is to deny reality basically. This is why I proposed people smurf with an unknown name and try to make a squad, it won't happen, the challenges are different, it's much harder... and no good players will sign up with you. So i'm not just saying it would be good for a competitive league and the zones health to sometimes lend your gaming skill to new squads but it would be good to lend something called social capital as well... when you join a new squad as a veteran or skilled player you legitimize them, people join because you have faith in it.
              Last edited by Falconeer; 03-08-2019, 08:51 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Rab View Post
                twl has impacted twd rosters so twd is not functioning as an inclusive league.
                that is a fair statement. twd used to be much more pervasive and ran non stop even when twl and twl qualifying wasnt going on. i guess i was mostly pointing to that aspect of it. youre right, now it appears to be a place to qualify for twl and knock off a little rust.
                sigpic

                1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Majorcrisis2 View Post
                  That crazy bad sharking costs a twdtb title yea
                  agreed. people who rep 3x in two seconds, shout DOA constantly when they should be repping on attach, are constantly out of position, leave huge gaps, place bad mines, and can't hold cram to save their lives are a big reason why good players want to play TWL.


                  1:Ogron> Redemption (349) killed by: Shaw
                  1:Ogron> looks like Shaw shanked Redemption :-)
                  1:Ease> ...
                  1:Heaven> LOL
                  1:Heaven> Ogron ? fired from Thunder Mar. 17, 2019 - 02:39

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Claushouse View Post

                    agreed. people who rep 3x in two seconds, shout DOA constantly when they should be repping on attach, are constantly out of position, leave huge gaps, place bad mines, and can't hold cram to save their lives are a big reason why good players want to play TWL.

                    Accept a joke for once you tard.

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