Elim Season 9

[Rab]

     Skilder> damn maN
     Skilder> quit dl
    destruct> LOL
     Skilder> u ate dat again
    destruct> im stealing free wifi
    destruct> shh
     Skilder> like 5 bomb eats this game

         Rab> !lag destruct
    Robo Ref> destruct: PING Cur: 200ms Ave: 230ms Low: 80ms Hi: 580ms PLOSS S2C: 0.2% C2S: 1.5% S2CWeapons: 0.0%
    Robo Ref> --------  SLOW S2C: 0.3% C2S: 0.0% SPIKE Med: 17.93 Count: 0

Why the fuck is the bot not speccing for this lag. Ridiculous.

[Rab]

By the way, Rab, bot should PM you right as the last Elim ends of you played in the one before and are still in the arena. Is there a way to improve this? Sound, double PM?

I know I've seen this PM, but it defo doesn't happen every time. And tbh I don't want it to.

PMs don't make a sound or flash the window for me (I might have changed a setting to that effect, can't remember) and I don't want PMs to make a sound or flash the window in general.

For example, here's the messages I typically see at the start of a round:

VOTE: 1-Warbird, 2-Javelin
    Whinegum> 1
This will be Warbird elim. VOTE: How many deaths? (5-10) (or 15-30 for a KillRace of 5-20)
Warbird ELIM to 7.
Enter to play. Arena will be locked in 10 seconds.
RULES: One player per freq and NO TEAMING! Die 7 times and you're out.
Get ready. Game will start in 10 seconds!
GO GO GO!!!
    Robo Ref> WBs to 7. PM !late to enter.

This tends to be the point where I notice a round has started, because the last message is yellow. All the other messages are green and just become a blur tbh, there's so much green in TW I don't even see it anymore.

I don't want you to make TW more like facebook (notification spam). When you're in the game there are sufficient messages. When you're tabbed out (with just the chat window visible) using !late is perfectly adequate. It just needs fixing so you don't get fucked by the death allocation.

Just change it to 2nd highest deaths and we're good. In the example above, the round has just begun and a few people will be using !late. There'll be most people on 0 deaths and some people on 1 death. The late person should be allocated Max-0 deaths, not Max-1.

The only scenario I can think of where this might be unwelcome is if there are only ever 2 players in the round, it might be preferrable to let the round end and start a fresh one than to prolong it. I wouldn't introduce a special case for this though, it's not worth it.

[ogron]

The 3 accounts with the lowest aim% have crazy high win percentages in Caos, Caos (again), and Jessup:



Aim% doesn't actually measure your aim (Caos has good aim), it measures how you play. They're hiding and straying and consistently on low deaths at the end.

Their win percentages are high because they play like giant pussies. The actual best players of the round are like 20-8 and 18-9 at the end, and they're 9-5 or 7-4. They shouldn't be getting a ratings bonus for hiding and straying all game.

Jessup isn't good enough for this to matter, his ratings aren't good, but Caos is actually a decent WB and he shows that being pathologically obsessed with staying 1.5 screens away from everyone with decent aim and willing to bore everyone around you to death and getting 3 free shots at anyone who wants to fire at you on-screen is effective.

Last night I was like 19-5 and maito_chi hid all game and was 4-4, and he suicided me out and got a win with a 9-9 rec, while I don't get a bonus with a 24-10.

Obviously his rating won't be good, but he's denying other players ranking a win bonus.

If you're going to keep the win bonus, the 2nd and 3rd player should get some kind of bonus as well to account for hiders, and the win bonus should be affected by your amount of kills. If you hid all game at 2-2, and deny someone the win bonus and finish 5-9, you should get less than Racka winning with a 25-8.

[ogron]

Also, I think if theres like 2-3 jav or wb elims in a row, it should automatically launch an elim game to 10 in the opposite ship.

Waiting around for 3 hours to get an elim game in your ship is frustrating.

It's bad for people who main the other ship, too, because if it's nothing but jav elims, the WBs will leave, decreasing the elim population (and free kills for them.)

You constantly have like 3-4-5 jav elims in a row for hours on end, with votes being close, and javs slightly outnumbering everyone. I even see javs take pity and try to throw the WBs votes sometimes.

I feel like that would benefit both Javs and WBs, because if you know your ship is going to come around after 2 straight elims in the other ship, it motivates you to stick around and play, and maintains a higher elim population in the arena.

The dominating ship would still get played 67% of the time.

[Jessup]

LOL at this logic by ogron saying to allow losers a winner bonus. Facepalm. GTFO with that nonsense.

You hide every game in the fringes on the map ogron. Robo ref is always saying ogron is a possible hider.

I'd love to see the percentage of possible hider comments that robo ref throws out during games towards players. Anyway to show that qan? Perhaps we could start there showing who the real hiders are in elim. Perhaps we can have robo ref comments for possible hiders start to detract from peoples bonus scores or something. I'd embrace this rule.

I do NOT hide. I play defensive and parry which is why my aim % is low. Aim percentage emphasis is being given too much weight. Purposely lobbed shots with low hit probability are a tactic used to get a player to overcommit on an attack or are used as a tactic to keep an enemy at bay. It is like a jab in boxing or a parry in fencing. It is a defensive style that is legitimate and aim % has little to do in showing the true skill of a player. It can not be equated with hiding. Not every shot taken should be considered equal nor does it have the same importance. Drawing players in with misses is an old tactic used by many of the best players.

Win bonuses for losers should be an obvious NO rofl

[Falconeer]

The 3 accounts with the lowest aim% have crazy high win percentages in Caos, Caos (again), and Jessup:



Aim% doesn't actually measure your aim (Caos has good aim), it measures how you play. They're hiding and straying and consistently on low deaths at the end.

Their win percentages are high because they play like giant pussies. The actual best players of the round are like 20-8 and 18-9 at the end, and they're 9-5 or 7-4. They shouldn't be getting a ratings bonus for hiding and straying all game.

Jessup isn't good enough for this to matter, his ratings aren't good, but Caos is actually a decent WB and he shows that being pathologically obsessed with staying 1.5 screens away from everyone with decent aim and willing to bore everyone around you to death and getting 3 free shots at anyone who wants to fire at you on-screen is effective.

Last night I was like 19-5 and maito_chi hid all game and was 4-4, and he suicided me out and got a win with a 9-9 rec, while I don't get a bonus with a 24-10.

Obviously his rating won't be good, but he's denying other players ranking a win bonus.

If you're going to keep the win bonus, the 2nd and 3rd player should get some kind of bonus as well to account for hiders, and the win bonus should be affected by your amount of kills. If you hid all game at 2-2, and deny someone the win bonus and finish 5-9, you should get less than Racka winning with a 25-8.

I'm not sure how it works, but so long as you're not getting a negative rating for losing after performing very well it's good.

In dsb I could face a stacked team in practice that has 45-10, 34-20, 18-12 rec respectively, while my team would have 27-25, 17-44, 22-34.

With 27-25 during a 30 minute game that was entirely us locked out trying to break a choke point, I end up getting -8 rating for being MVP on my losing team and holding my own against a dominant team with epic 'giants' for players. It always made very little sense to me to base ratings on wins only. In reality I should have gotten +2 rating at least, or no rating hit. While the winning team walks away with +8 rating. Basically DSBs rating system is broken like hell.

Not sure if it's the same here. But if you're not taking a negative rating for losing, it basically means you wasted your time only.

[Jessup]

It is not the same at all here falc. There are already MANY bonuses people are getting that factor into the equations of rating scores. You kill more your rating increases due to kill bonus. You kill a higher ranked harder player your rating improves because of that, you break a streak your rating improves. You do multikills your rating improves. The win game bonus is just one of many already implemented bonuses set into play. It is one of many things that determine your score. The win bonus makes tons of sense added into all this equation we have. Rewarding the winner is a common sense bonus to keep.

[Rab]

I have the opposite problem in UK hours, tends to be quite a lot of wb games, which I'm not interested in at all.

If you gave a bonus to 2nd and 3rd place you increase the chance of a hider being rewarded for hiding. I agree about the problem, but there's gott be a better solution than that.

[Rab]

Again, bot not speccing people when I use !lag on them. It did the first few times, then just stopped, meanwhile the lagger just keeps reconnecting and basically gets to play, lag limits are not working, whatever they are.

         Rab> !lag purge
    Robo Ref> Purge: PING Cur: 300ms Ave: 290ms Low: 260ms Hi: 480ms PLOSS S2C: 0.3% C2S: 0.0% S2CWeapons: 0.0%
    Robo Ref> -----  SLOW S2C: 0.0% C2S: 0.0% SPIKE Med: 9.27 Count: 0

[Falconeer]

It is not the same at all here falc. There are already MANY bonuses people are getting that factor into the equations of rating scores. You kill more your rating increases due to kill bonus. You kill a higher ranked harder player your rating improves because of that, you break a streak your rating improves. You do multikills your rating improves. The win game bonus is just one of many already implemented bonuses set into play. It is one of many things that determine your score. The win bonus makes tons of sense added into all this equation we have. Rewarding the winner is a common sense bonus to keep.

oh wow sounds good to me... thanks for explaining.

[FeLiX_dA_kAt]

+1 to idea to separate out wb/jav elim to run simultaneously

[ogron]

That would be a terrible idea, population is way too low.

Should just have a 2:1 system. Everytime there's two WB elims in a row, run a Jav, so people aren't waiting 4 hours to play the ship they want.

This keeps both sets of players interested and they stick around and play the other league because they know a Jav game is coming up soon.

Benefits both WBs and Javs.

[qan]

I'll set a reminder to check up on the bot lag limits (rather than arena). Can't check right now, as they're in a CFG and I use several different computers, some of which use a proxy that does not play nice with SSH. (I can get around it with a phone tether, but it's just a hassle to be doing constantly throughout the day.)



Any more opinions on alternating games? What happens if it's a group that only wants to play a specific type of game -- such as 100% of the votes are for Jav, but the bot forces them to play a WB? Seems a little bit heavy-handed and non-adaptable. Need to think of edge cases, always. The general case is very easy to design for, but it's the edge cases where weird and undesirable behavior comes up.

Right now, the game that wasn't played the round before wins ties. How about if the last two games were X gametype, Y gametype can win with 1 fewer vote (so long as at least one person votes for it)? So if two rounds of Javs are played, and votes are 3 Jav, 2 WB, WB wins it.

[Jessup]

I think keeping voting for type of elim game is best.. It reflects the majorities will this way and seems fairest. I'd like to see killrace go though personally.

[ogron]

Anything would be an improvement, and I think it would benefit both ships.

You want WBs playing jav games and vice-versa to keep the population of games up, and that means throwing them a bone now and then.