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  • Elim rating system is bad and broken

    Why are small games of elim counted as strikes against players. It is impossible to even rank up in 3 player elims and 2 player elims are even worse. I just lost 2 rating points playing elim because the player I was vsing lagged out. This needs to be fixed and is unfair. Why should I be penalized going 0-0 in a 1 vs 1 elim game where my opponent lags out. How is this fair? It needs to be fixed. This is BS.

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  • #2
    If you're at 100% confidence, particularly if you're playing against a lower-ranked player, yes, even winning an elim can lose you points.

    It's possible we need to look at 0-0 outcomes as not affecting rating/advancing games.

    At one point we were looking at a system in which you could not lose rating if you won, but it might have abuse potential. For example, a high-ranked player could feed someone lower, but then win the overall elim. The lower-ranked player would gain rating but the higher-ranked player wouldn't lose rating... rinse and repeat.

    May be worth only counting elims of a certain size as rated. For example, 3 or less might be considered a friendly.

    Lagging out when it's 1v1 remaining and having it count as a loss is a bit annoying. Seems as though you should be able to have a bit of time to rejoin. A bit annoying to implement that, though.

    Last, it seems win streaks are messed up. Has it always done that, where your win streak = number of games played in that ship?
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
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    • #3
      I don't know how this silly rating system works qan. It seems so wrong to me. How I have better stat ratios than people who are ABOVE me on the ladder is quite perplexing. It's bs I have higher kill/death ratios than people ranked above me on the ladder though. Is there something wrong with it? Why is it saying this win streak thing is so high. I don't get that at all. Small games HURT players which is bad too it seems. I look at my win record and kill to death ratio and my ko's and kill joys and basically all stats but but aim and yet I'm below them? Something seems very wrong.

      Is there somewhere that explains exactly how it works? I'd like to see the total math equation that is deciding how ratings are being determined. Playing smaller games should NOT be penalizing players. There is definitely something fishy seeming. It makes no sense to me. I did a screenshot of a few players with higher ratings above me but when I compare all the different aspects it seems I am in the lead in the majority of categories.

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      • #4
        PM !rh for help with ratings, which includes a link to this sheet. (You can play with entering different values yourself in the green box.) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

        The short answer is, K is not the end-all-be-all, nor are wins. One of the biggest factors in your rating is the rating of the players you kill (Ave). So if you're playing against weaker opponents, your rating will be significantly less than if you played against stronger ones. (Holding a 1:1 ratio vs very tough opponents is arguably more impressive than a 1.5:1 or even 2:1 against weak ones.) This has always been a cornerstone of elim ratings.

        If you're trying to increase your rating and have already reached 100% confidence, unfortunately playing against weaker opponents will make this pretty difficult. At a certain point you will hit a wall in terms of increasing in rating unless you actively try to hunt down and kill higher-rated players. Though you may be able to still do it by doing extremely well against lower-rated players.

        The win streak should be fixed next reboot.

        Games with fewer players have a slight rating penalty applied: 1% for every player under 10. This is designed to prevent late-night feeding, and to reflect that it's slightly easier to do well in a small game than a large one. It may not be necessary, however, and might be detrimental to keeping activity going during slower times.

        You also earn more for a round win based on the number of players. It's much more difficult to win an elim of 10 or 15 than it is to win an elim of 2.
        "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
        -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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        • #5
          Originally posted by qan View Post
          you will hit a wall in terms of increasing in rating unless you actively try to hunt down and kill higher-rated players. Though you may be able to still do it by doing extremely well against lower-rated players.
          So you're saying Jessup will never increase in rank, because her playstyle is to literally hide all game until everyone else is out and try to win by vulching the last remaining couple of players by vulching them with her 2-1 record, while they are on high deaths. It's a bullshit way of playing elim, and frankly, when players like Jessup get 50 'player x is hiding at x coord' messages spammed in the game per match, it gets real old and ridiculous trying to chase them all game. When this game had actual staff around, they'd spec players like Jessup for hiding, because it's illegal, but she always does it.

          Can you add some kind of system to make hiders get auto-specced and/or lose deaths/rating for each successive hiding message that gets spammed after the first one or two? I think this is fair, and it should be required that these players are forced to fight like the rest of the playerbase does. It's no different than Jav elim has the 'go to base immediately' message to prevent this kind of crap. Elim needs it too at this point due to players like Jessup.

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          • #6
            I have to agree with Exalt .

            Games drag on for way too long and other players end up leaving in frustration. I've seen multiple games go on for an eternity due to Jessup being on low deaths hiding, running, lobbing, straying and vulching in the finals of games.

            I agree that something should be implemented in regards to auto-speccing/automatic death/decrease in rating for players who are abusing this.

            There has been too many times I see green on my screen reading 'Jessup is hiding at N14' etc.

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            • #7
              Thanks for posting that qan.

              I'm still concerned about this. It lends itself to players being very selective and padding their stats and the amount of games they play. It makes playing smaller games not worth it at all also thus leading to elim inactivity once you play a few big elims and get 18 plus kills in them you should basically just stop. The logic used is self defeating in my opinion. It seems a conclusion was made "late night" or "small" games are vs total noobs. That is NOT what I have observed.

              This needs to be discussed more this next phase we are heading into. There is NO REASON to play on your name during small matches it seems. I think this set up allows gaming of the system to favor and pad stats if you go about it in a methodical way which has serious problems. If I continue to play the game(may be retiring soon) I will go about playing elim MUCH differently than I have this last season. I think we should be open and transparent about the best ways players should approach elim who are interested in attempting to be involved in any playoff matches that may ensue. Open discussion about the best tactics how to qualify should be addressed.

              I know next elim ladder reset I will play TOTALLY different as it seems my efforts have gone unnoticed and unrewarded by being very active which involved numerous smaller games. Small games just whittle away at player ratings. I strongly urge NO ONE to play any game less than 5 players as this system is set up now.

              I'd love to see the top 20 placed players games they did. Looks like a few do not even have 100% confidence. Just realizing a free for all when you are bored is NOT the way to go about this the way it is set up now.

              Hope this made some sense, I'm pretty tired. Can elaborate more on my thoughts later.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Exalt View Post

                So you're saying Jessup will never increase in rank, because her playstyle is to literally hide all game until everyone else is out and try to win by vulching the last remaining couple of players by vulching them with her 2-1 record, while they are on high deaths. It's a bullshit way of playing elim, and frankly, when players like Jessup get 50 'player x is hiding at x coord' messages spammed in the game per match, it gets real old and ridiculous trying to chase them all game. When this game had actual staff around, they'd spec players like Jessup for hiding, because it's illegal, but she always does it.

                Can you add some kind of system to make hiders get auto-specced and/or lose deaths/rating for each successive hiding message that gets spammed after the first one or two? I think this is fair, and it should be required that these players are forced to fight like the rest of the playerbase does. It's no different than Jav elim has the 'go to base immediately' message to prevent this kind of crap. Elim needs it too at this point due to players like Jessup.
                LOL this isn't kill race it is ELIMINATION. LAST
                person alive wins.
                I DO NOT EVER HIDE EITHER. I play defensive.

                What staff needs to start doing though is stopping Teaming if they want to step in. There has been a ridiculous amount of teaming that has been unpunished.

                I have always said I could support elim games having a timer imposed in them but will never yield in the definition of what elim actually is. It is about surviving. It is the definition of the game. If you want to make something new and call it something else fine. Have a kill race arena where everyone suicides wildly. Elim though even with a time should be won by the person with the lowest deaths or who is the last player standing.
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                • #9
                  Also I urge staff to publicly show who has the most hider comments by the bot. I guarantee it is NOT me and you will see that some top ranked players are getting the hider calls by the bot WAYYYYYYYYY more than me.
                  Last edited by Jessup; 04-22-2019, 04:10 AM.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jessup View Post

                    LOL this isn't kill race it is ELIMINATION. LAST
                    person alive wins.

                    I DO NOT EVER HIDE EITHER. I play defensive.

                    What staff needs to start doing though is stopping Teaming if they want to step in. There has been a ridiculous amount of teaming that has been unpunished.

                    I have always said I could support elim games having a timer imposed in them but will never yield in the definition of what elim actually is. It is about surviving. It is the definition of the game. If you want to make something new and call it something else fine. Have a kill race arena where everyone suicides wildly. Elim though even with a time should be won by the person with the lowest deaths or who is the last player standing.
                    You are so blinded by selfishness that you can't even understand and accept why this is so bad. Imagine if everyone played elim the same as you do. Everyone would hide, and games would take forever to finish. There's a very good reason why hiding like you do is ILLEGAL in elim and got you specced and/or banned years ago when staff actually cared. Refusing to fight and hiding is explicitly not allowed in elim, so you cannot claim your definition of elim is the right one. You break rules to win, and you make elim worse for everyone else that plays. Most of your wins are undeserved, and frankly, allowing you to continue to play that way just makes the game a joke. Rules were set in elim long before you ever started playing subspace, and they've been there for a reason.

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                    • #11
                      WRONG, I've never been banned from elim for hiding because I don't hide EVER.

                      Instead of focusing on me and trying to smear my name in the mud maybe you should focus on the fact your elim record is negative. How you are top 20 is beyond me. Throw a bunch more lies around and try to make them stick Exalt. Pathetic. You are the same type guy who will whine if someone suicides you and say "whyyyyyy" No winning with guys like you.

                      Go ahead and look up the stats of bot calls on who is a hider and then confront me. As it is, you are just using hearsay and making crap up.

                      Am I alive at the end of many elims? Yes. often I am positive by large margins too.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                        WRONG, I've never been banned from elim for hiding because I don't hide EVER.

                        Instead of focusing on me and trying to smear my name in the mud maybe you should focus on the fact your elim record is negative. How you are top 20 is beyond me. Throw a bunch more lies around and try to make them stick Exalt. Pathetic. You are the same type guy who will whine if someone suicides you and say "whyyyyyy" No winning with guys like you.

                        Go ahead and look up the stats of bot calls on who is a hider and then confront me. As it is, you are just using hearsay and making crap up.

                        Am I alive at the end of many elims? Yes. often I am positive by large margins too.
                        You can't bullshit a bullshitter. Stop acting like people can't see with their own two eyes. You make a very bad liar. Also, I'm far from the only one that's said this exact same thing about you. There are multiple forum posts going back months about you doing this crap. As for why you've never been banned or specced, it's because staff are useless and/or don't even exist, they don't ever monitor elim, and nobody makes reports when staff don't even do anything about it. You were too much of a newbie back when TW was active for anyone to even notice you back then, and there were also so many players in elim that you'd have nowhere to hide regardless.

                        Anyway, it doesn't matter, because it looks like the bot knows you are a bullshit hider and keeps you at low rank due to that regardless. You are free to change your playstyle if you want to rank up. If not, then stfu and accept it.

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                        • #13
                          I feel the current rating system is absolutely fine as it prevents great players from stat padding when the zone is in its inactive periods. As an example I could easily log on and end up with a ridiculous 20:1 or greater ratio over the course of several games during these inactive periods when there are at most two other players participating, and more often than not these players tend to be of lesser skill. This should not be rewarded in any shape or form, and perhaps changing games with less than three players to be friendly skirmishes with no impact on rating is the right call.

                          I enjoy the fact that you get rewarded for both playing and winning bigger eliminations as these tend to be much more difficult in nature. Additionally you get a slight bonus to your match rating when killing other high rated players, or as an example when you end a kill streak. It makes perfect sense for these kills have more value than killing and hunting a player who averages 2-10 in every elimination round.

                          Now as far as Jessup is concerned, his play style can be very aggravating but it is still borderline acceptable. I would not outright say he refuses to fight, however his style of play is far too safe and defensive which lessens the quality of games, making it extremely boring to both play and watch, and this ruins the experience of many players. This holds true in team games as well where his priority seems to be survival over team work.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                            I DO NOT EVER HIDE EITHER. I play defensive.
                            LOL. As Exalt said, if everyone played like you, we would have hour long rounds of Elim. There's no way you actually believe that you are "playing defensive". You actively avoid fighting and run nonstop. If one person made that claim, you might be able to pass it off, but when 90% of the zone says you are hiding/running, I think that's a pretty clear indicator of how you play.

                            The amount of DDs/JDs where you are on 2 deaths and the rest of your team dies out is laughable. Please say it's because you're better than them and not because you are letting them get teamed just so you can lob bombs/bullets from R5.

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                            • #15
                              Irrelevant people chiming in like jeff potato head. Guy is literally saying I don't die enough rofl. Thanks for the compliment.

                              I also am a top R1 killer on Paladen so again more bs hearsay being thrown around.
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