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  • #16
    Just get rid of the lev's and use the night wasp it way cooler and funner as well as faster😁 PLEASE BRING BACK THE NIGHT WASP!😭😇 Or make the lev's better.

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    • #17
      I've been LT'ing since 2001, it was one of my favorite activities for a long time.

      It was fun when there were 6 pub arenas and full of people, and you'd get 1000 bounty and get chased around by 10 people.

      The state of the game is not such that it is supportive of levis. The game isn't healthy enough for something as selfish as LT'ing (and it is selfish, you're destroying the fun of 12 people in the FR trying to base.)

      The ship should be eliminated.

      No compromises. It doesn't belong in the game anymore.

      Rework the ship into something that fits in with basing. There aren't enough ships with repels. If one freq has a shark and the other doesn't, you're fucked.

      Why not convert the Levi into something with 2 repels that can displace enemy mines?

      Make it be unable to mine/bomb, have 1 less repel than a shark, and move slower, but can still repel... and be able to fire a multispread bullet like the old Lancaster?

      Make it like the tankiest, slowest ship out there with the least rotation (but still a bit faster and more rotate-y than a levi).

      It would be unique, help solve the problem of not enough sharks on a freq (a lot of people don't wanna play shark), and be a nice replacement to the Levi, which is no longer a good fit in pub.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Claushouse View Post
        I've been LT'ing since 2001, it was one of my favorite activities for a long time.

        It was fun when there were 6 pub arenas and full of people, and you'd get 1000 bounty and get chased around by 10 people.

        The state of the game is not such that it is supportive of levis. The game isn't healthy enough for something as selfish as LT'ing (and it is selfish, you're destroying the fun of 12 people in the FR trying to base.)

        The ship should be eliminated.

        No compromises. It doesn't belong in the game anymore.

        Rework the ship into something that fits in with basing. There aren't enough ships with repels. If one freq has a shark and the other doesn't, you're fucked.

        Why not convert the Levi into something with 2 repels that can displace enemy mines?

        Make it be unable to mine/bomb, have 1 less repel than a shark, and move slower, but can still repel... and be able to fire a multispread bullet like the old Lancaster?

        Make it like the tankiest, slowest ship out there with the least rotation (but still a bit faster and more rotate-y than a levi).

        It would be unique, help solve the problem of not enough sharks on a freq (a lot of people don't wanna play shark), and be a nice replacement to the Levi, which is no longer a good fit in pub.
        i like a couple of those ideas actually..although making it a slow tankie ship with no rotation i dont see guys using it.. but a bullet firing repeller rather then a bombing/mining repeller might be intriging actually... id rather see it with a fast rotation though... i think...bottom line on this thread was its inability to defend itself and if another ship can fly a circle around a ship before it can even fire or recharge then it cant really defend itself....

        there is a couple cloakers that are actually good using bricks in the current flag battles... that might be interesting to have it have something else to use with the bullets and reps... maybe a brick ability...
        Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

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        • #19
          Here is the opinion of a guy who played Pub for 20 years…
          For many years great, competitive basing games were killed off by selfish private frequency LT’s which were often being piloted by staffers and experienced players. I am sure it was ‘fun’ for those LT players, but it was incredibly selfish and short sighted. It put a few players interests ahead of what was best for the pub basing and the zone.

          Between private frequency LTs and pub bucks, both of which heavily skewed Pub in the favor of experienced players and against noobs, it choked off the life blood of keeping fresh players renewing those who had moved on. I know for a fact that for a number of years large number of noobs entered the zone and then quit within 20 minutes when they saw how unfair Pub was with experienced players ‘buying wins’ or having a private frequency LT warp to the roof at game start and blow away everyone in the flag room. It was like shooting fish in a barrels for the experienced players and helped boost their egos but was horrid for the zone’s long term health.

          But this is all water under the bridge now and no longer matters. Just as many of us predicted for years, the zone has turned into another HZ zone where a small population of older experienced players play mostly out of reminiscence. I see little value in in asking Qan to invest his time in making ‘improvements’ at this point (he has already contributed so much over the years), just enjoy Pub the way it is and the little time we have left.
          Eph

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          • #20
            Pub is Trash

            I just played a big 15 vs 15 game, and what should have been an amazing, epic battle instead turned into a complete joke.

            1) We're having a competitive match and Levis bombing from the roof kill the whole battle

            2) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors our entire team

            3) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors the enemies entire team

            4) Someone sends out fireworks and you can't fucking see anything while fighting

            5) We're having a competitive match and someone Supers and buys other shit and ruins the game

            6) We're having a competitive match then 9 players on the other team all get into shark and ruin the game


            Whoever designed this... what are you doing?

            Why is their no semblance of competitive balance? It's completely baffling. Letting someone buy overpowered shit that ruins the game is fun... for 1 of the 30 people buying it. It's shitty and sucks for everyone else.

            It's honestly like whoever put all this stuff in has never played this game before and just throws in whatever "seems cool". It's not.
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            • #21
              i was in that game and it was exceptionally frustrating lol
              Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

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              • #22
                Re: win buying, I remember coming back after a hiatus from staff and seeing pubbux had been put in. I wasn't a big fan, but you have to change with the times; once put in place, it created its own ecosystem, an unstoppable momentum that couldn't be reversed without players quitting in frustration that staff had stolen something that is theirs.

                This is just one example of how pub has evolved organically over the years and through many hands, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. It's impossible to say who "made" pub. There is no designer, and no design.

                To get back to pubbux, one positive effect is it's made duels matter more. It also garnered a fair share of extra donations, which allowed players to essentially buy pubbux, and those donations have kept the bot/webserver going for years and years. But yes, it gives some wealthy players a bit too much control over how pub's played.

                I've made my peace with it (justified it as a pubbux apologist?) with this rationale: pubbux represents investment of your time (or in some cases real money) in pub. By spending this "time," you can have some agency over how pub is played, which could be argued is fair because you've demonstrated your commitment to keeping it alive.

                We've had times in pub when you can essentially buy nothing, or it's all prohibitively expensive. We've had times when it's cheap as dirt and you needed to macro full charge just to have a chance at competing. Times when you need to be in certain places to buy (defending terrs still can't buy port/burst inside FR, for example), etc. A million things have been tried over the years.

                As I understand it, the pub over the years has been an ever-flawed, ever-changing attempt at a balance between freedom, competition and fun.

                Freedom: players can play whatever ship they'd like, and they can play however they'd like. While the flag game is the center of the game, it's not the "goal" of pub. There is no real goal to pub other than enjoying yourself. If you want to duel, if you want to spawnkill, if you want to have intense flag games, if you want to roofjav, if you want to weasel, if you want to mine tube, if you want to LT ... these are all recognized parts of pub. Just as you can't change a single tile in competitive basing, you also can't change certain fundamental aspects of pub without upsetting a huge part of the population. So we compromise a lot in the name of freedom. We like to say "you can't do that" as little as possible.

                Competition: obviously without a competitive element, pub would become boring. When I pub, it's pretty much always to base. Again, yes, the flag game is the center of pub. But that said, it is not the entirety of pub, and to believe it is so is to make a serious mistake. For example, if we wanted to have more competitive basing, we could limit players from being able to play anything but Terr, Shark and Spider. But this too heavily skews things in favor of strong competition, greatly depriving freedom and sapping out all the fun of it. Which brings me to the dreaded...

                Fun: what is considered "fun" is quite subjective. For the tryhard crowd it's only serious competition. (And personally, anymore this is the only thing I really enjoy in pub, though I used to enjoy dueling in base with small teams a few years back.) For others it's something entirely different. Fun includes some elements that are at cross-purposes to competition, such as spending a huge amount of money to thor the enemy team (or have your incredibly expensive warhead be repelled away harmlessly to the jeers of the enemy team). Or buying super. Or buying ballpower to try and get a L4 levi shot off. Or shooting off fireworks, buying beer, tea, playing rock-paper-scissors, etc.

                To reiterate, pub is an attempt to balance between these elements, which are often at war with one another. It doesn't always succeed, and sometimes it swings too heavily in favor of one vs the other. We've tried to implement solutions to allow people to counter some elements, such as being able to !deploy from inside base to the roof, to take care of LTs and roofjavs. (Or you can buy a roofterr.) Or keeping Levis off the roof at the round start in general so they can't pop the FR when people are warped in. If you're suffering from a lack of Terrs, you can !st to sponsor one. If you really are disgusted with levis, you can buy purepub -- though they can also now cancel this for a ridiculous amount.

                The important thing to remember is that your style of play is not the only one being catered to. Pub's for everyone, for the general public, and for the most part, what the public wants is what goes. It's silly, frustrating and competitive in turns. One giant series of compromises between a hundred different styles of play. That means almost nobody's going to be happy.

                Such is life.
                "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
                -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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                • #23
                  I think it's hilarious that you can do those things and that it annoys certain people/certain types of people. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is how there's a trade off between balance and skill that you can't numerically compute or at least I can't. Are levs overpowered because they're strong against poor coordination/communication? Maybe you can say the bomb is huge range and huge damage but, to move the ship anywhere takes a lot of time. There's some balance between skill, innate mechanics, and teamwork that makes it possible to fall into a range of acceptable balance. People just complain but you need actual stats to put up real numbers and analyze player deaths and kills etc to find where the balance lies. Then you're limited by what you can actually change. Like you can't reduce the bomb's range slightly? maybe 7.5-10%? That seems to be the biggest issue lol: not being able to implement the changes we need to.

                  As for the state of Pub who knows.. I feel like more things to have and play with are better.. there are so many vanilla competitive options there is nothing really fun where u can let lose and be chill. You can buy buyblock, or just fight it out. Did the troops storming Normandy know what faced them and have exactly perfect odds? It's Trench Wars.. and it's also whatever atmosphere qan wants it. He doesn't have to change anything but he's willing to listen to ideas that fit with the overall theme and will work. So it's up to you to make a really great idea. Not trying to act like I know everything but I feel like 'good ideas' are really easy to understand and impelment. And really simple. Your idea might be brilliant but if it's so complicated who's to know.. plus people like what they know already. It's a good start to look at what are the thorns in the side which is why I agree about levs and think they should be nerfed some somehow.
                  Last edited by Dierienow; 08-19-2018, 11:25 PM.
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                  • #24
                    I could pull some specific stats if you know what you're looking for. Average K/D ratio of each ship?

                    Reducing the bomb's radius isn't possible without affecting L1 bombs, unfortunately. L3 radius = L1 * 3. (L2 = L1 * 2) We tried Levis with L2 for quite a while. Might be time to go back to that again, with improved turn radius and more energy. Returning to L3 with reduced energy and bomb speed was kind of an experiment to see if we could retain the old massive bombs without making the ship too OP. But in the end it may have sacrificed too much.

                    We could also look at giving Levis prox.

                    The other setting available is a bounced bomb doing more/less damage. So possibly, if we reduced L1 bomb radius slightly to provide a reduction in L3, we could compensate by increasing damage for Jav bombs after they've bounced. The effect might be negligible. But it would also mean changing not one but two of the "untouchable" ships (1,2,3,5,7,8) which doesn't sit well with me because it would mean it would function differently than in other areas of the zone. Actually, I believe Shark could function almost exactly the same with an increase in EMP bomb damage (another setting) but it'd still be slightly different... and that's no good.

                    For reference here's a list of SS settings + explanations behind each. Gives a better idea of what can and can't be done:
                    https://github.com/fatrolls/subgame-...r/TEMPLATE.SSS


                    Also, as for "it's whatever atmosphere qan wants" ... I really hope that's not the case. There are many things I dislike about pub but that I don't change, because what I want personally isn't remotely important. I really do try to aggregate opinions and represent what people think is the right direction to move in. This is why it's difficult to just go on one person's idea, unless they make a great argument and it's clearly an improvement. If not, I might think it's a good idea, but if nobody else but me and the poster think so, perhaps it's not so good after all.
                    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
                    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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                    • #25
                      Qan I see where you're coming from, and I agree pubbux have been good for things like dueling.

                      Originally posted by Claushouse View Post

                      2) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors our entire team

                      3) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors the enemies entire team
                      but maybe there is some middle-ground when it comes to thors.
                      I just tested pub and there is only a 3-minute wait time after buying a thor, even if you attempt to buy it multiple times in a row.


                      What if we just extended the wait time 10-15 minutes so it could be used more strategically once/twice per game, rather than spammed everytime a team is losing the flagroom?

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                      • #26
                        Throughout the years the pro-pub bucks people always neatly side stepped the true detrimental design effect; pub bucks gave experienced players an advantage. There is no debate about this, it is true (which is probably why the pro-pub bucks folks avoid talking about it).

                        Given this, the issue then turns to, ‘what is the point of the Pub arena’? If one ignores the fact that this arena is where every new players enters into, then giving an advantage to experienced players is just fine. Another factor is that new players had/have no real advocates or voice, so it was easy to ignore them and support the mouthy ‘vets’ who used Pub for ‘fun’.

                        In my opinion Pub, as the beginning arena for new players, should have always had the primary design criteria in giving the new players an advantage. Just like every other game in the world, as a player gets more experience they should encounter more difficult levels and challenges. Having a introduction level available for experienced players to own at will was bad enough, but then giving them extra advantages on top of this complete overkill and unnecessary.

                        And of course there was also the issue with Pub being the ‘catch-all’ for every good idea that was ever considered. Good or bad, new things were always introduced into Pub since it was considered a good/efficient test bed since it typically had plenty of players.

                        Even if the code base supported an experienced player advantage ‘vets’ were not required to use it. Because I played a lot of Pub I always had huge amounts of pub bucks and never bought endless amounts of reps of other things which would have given me even more advantages over less experienced players. So selfishness is the real culprit. I also place a fair amount of blame on the staffers would often seemed delighted in using Pub for selfish ego boosts. Staffers who should have shown some leadership, vision, and self-control by helping the new player base instead of owning them. They displayed an awful example which other vets then used as an excuse for their own selfish justifications.

                        But what is done is done and we cannot turn back time. Ideally Pub would have given new players extra weapons and strength. But the obvious flaw with that approach is again selfishness; some players would have just constantly made new player names just to get the extra ship attributes. People are always going to be lame and there no code in the world which changes that fact.
                        Eph

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                        • #27
                          Pub and the massive decline in new players is partly YOUR fault you fuck. You, Rab, Qan, ect. ect. have refused to listen to overwhelming majority that requested when entering TW for the first time or the 1 thousandth, they enter into ELIM. So they might wait to play for the first time for a few minutes. They get to watch others play though, get to feel the hype of maybe doing good when they get a chance to play, ect. Hell, they might actually read all that annoying ass green text you guys insist throwing at them!

                          You know what is HUGE right now? Battle royals.. PUBG, FORTNITE, soon to be COD4 and BFV.. 100 people start and last one alive wins.

                          Hmmm.. Sounds a fucking lot like ELIM? Second thought. Nah.. I am just crazy? LOL. \_("/)_/

                          People sit and watch people die out over the time of a lengthy match with 0 problems with battle royal game modes. If you every played one of these games, you might litterally sit and watch for upwards for 45 mins depending on how soon you were eliminated, nothing compared to our elim matches in TW. And if they are impatient, they can just leave and try back later.

                          You nailed every thing that is wrong with pub Eph and I love how you act like you played no part in it, just some poor supporter who had the answers this whole time and was ignored. You've been the biggest pusher of keeping new players coming into YOUR fucked up pub, to be beaten down brutally. I mean fucked up with all the new shit, from tiny spawn points, pubbux to buy shit and making rounds. You were among those who wanted to make Pub competitive, adding game rounds/matches, player end game shoutouts/stats ie. BasingKing/Queen when pub was NEVER meant to be competitive, it was meant to be a place to relax, chat with friends, play casual and generally goof off.

                          You guys still stood there and like flaming hypocrites and despite the changes would still argue how pub isn't competitive, all while you and Rab stick your sausages up Qan's cheeks inserting notions to remove ships like Levi's and shit because it's lame to have in YOUR non-competitive pub.. Jesus Christ.

                          Top off all the other induced cancer to pub and this game from you idiots, Qan made spawns in FR so the rate at which new players die is now 100% more than it ever was, just to make you "pro" pubbers feel great, collecting them pub bux to buy each other tea or fireworks, parading on the fact you guys are killing the game.

                          I'd bet money we haven't had a single new player log in for over a year or w/e and none of the dudes from steam ever came back. I have over a dozen I tried to get to play this game and they straight up refuse because of how messy and confusing it it. I stopped trying to push SS on my friends and co-workers because of it. I work in the fucking game industry and I would be embarrassed to show this shit to my co-workers, least in the state it is in now and most likely will stay. I'd consider trying to claim rights for one of the studios I collab with to reboot it but this game has no owner, least one that you can contact, it has no billing ops anymore, servers are awful, most likely ones that are free.

                          Least Qan has come to realize the truth that TWD is the only reason this game isn't dead, so that is something but it's annoying as fuck to read from you Eph in 2018 about shit we realized 10-15 years ago.. during a time when you loved killing newbs and making a pub tailored to you and protesting changes that would actually make this game accommodating to new players. I know this will indefinitely hurt your pussy, so sorry not sorry. Just wish you could of had this newfound logic along with everyone else so much sooner.

                          Pub is cancer and I love it you are beginning to see the glaring issues you ignored for decades though bro, holy fuck LOL.

                          -IxaDor
                          Voted Trench War's "Rookie of the Year" - 2007-2008
                          Prodigy of Attack's Since - 2017
                          Co-Owner of Trench War's Most Loved Squad - Lethal Dose - 2007-2013
                          Iron Survivor Sympathizer (for being poor) - 2010 - 2018
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                          • #28
                            Last time I installed this game I had trouble getting Trench Wars to show green back in April or May. Other zones are permanently red no matter what I try. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened to others and basically nobody new could get into the game. And if they could get Trench Wars to go green then that's essentially step 1 out of 100 of becoming a returning player. I'm not sure if you can blame anyone here for that.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ForgottenGhost
                              maybe there is some middle-ground when it comes to thors. I just tested pub and there is only a 3-minute wait time after buying a thor, even if you attempt to buy it multiple times in a row. What if we just extended the wait time 10-15 minutes so it could be used more strategically once/twice per game, rather than spammed everytime a team is losing the flagroom?
                              On Thor buy rates, they've gone up and down. Get complaints it's too long, then it's too short. Let's try too long again, as multiple people have brought it up as a problem, and the vastly increased price did not seem to stop it. I've put the arena limit at every 10 minutes (still quite frequent) and the frequency limit at 20. This way the same team can't buy them multiple times in a row/"steal" the arena-wide use from the other team.

                              Also raised the price of Super and Shield slightly, to account for the influx of cash provided by Festival, Elim, and new pub milestones.

                              Originally posted by Ephemeral
                              Given this, the issue then turns to, ‘what is the point of the Pub arena’? If one ignores the fact that this arena is where every new players enters into, then giving an advantage to experienced players is just fine. Another factor is that new players had/have no real advocates or voice, so it was easy to ignore them and support the mouthy ‘vets’ who used Pub for ‘fun’.
                              I understand where you're coming from with this. But surprisingly, it's actually not such an uncommon model. For example, in, say, Battlefield, you unlock weapons and abilities the more you play, rather than starting with all abilities and having them removed as you continue to play. It's certainly not fair, but it does motivate people to continue playing so that they, too, can use these abilities.

                              Meanwhile we have always had options for new players to make easy kills, regardless of if they have pubbux. For instance, you can just luckshot in a WB, you can multifire on a Lanc, you can mine the tube, you can cloak, etc. Some of those are trickier to do than others, though everyone can certainly get off a lucky WB shot (which is why it's always been the best newplayer ship IMO). The fact that weapons do so much damage in TW is probably the main reason why we're still alive and almost every other zone is dead: it's instantly addictive for new players, because they can instantly hop in and make a kill, even if they take 3-4 deaths doing it.

                              Originally posted by ixador
                              Pub and the massive decline in new players is partly YOUR fault you fuck. You, Rab, Qan, ect. ect. have refused to listen to overwhelming majority that requested when entering TW for the first time or the 1 thousandth, they enter into ELIM
                              It would be more correct to say, a plurality of forum posters. Many people who post here don't even play. I can't say for certain, but I'm reasonably sure that if we voted in-game, this idea would not be all that popular. For a variety of reasons. The first I'd say is that elim's entirely geared toward competition. I'm not an elim player personally, though I used to be. But I love pub. I love the freedom of being able to play how I want, to make my own game. Is my goal to take and hold the flag? Or get revenge on that guy that keeps killing me? Maybe I want to just rush-mine people in a shark and don't care how many deaths it takes to get that one satisfying kill. There are so many ways to play pub. There's a very small number of ways to play elim.

                              Re: BR, a Battle Royale mode is currently in development. Should be quite good! Though what you say about people waiting around 45 minutes for the next BR match is largely not true. They just hop into a new game. They wouldn't have that option here.

                              By the way, the low-pop spawns you mention as "cancer" are the only reason pub actually stays alive during slow times. It's not pretty, but 2v2 or 3v3 in base is much better than 0v0.

                              I don't think the game would make sense to new players, no. I mean, think about it: you can't even use a mouse to navigate the interface. There are hundreds of obscure commands you have to PM to bots (can't even use them in chat). The default keys for many abilities are Shift + an obscure key that could be located anywhere on a laptop keyboard. Suffice to say, it has a very niche playerbase. So yes, we cater to current and former SS players, and it's not going to make much sense to most new players. Occasionally, someone actually new drops in, and we do our best to help them learn. Mint Chocolate Chip, Wirah and I worked quite hard recently to create a pretty robust tutorial, for example. (Make a new name to check it out.) But for the most part we focus on maintaining the playerbase we have.

                              By the way, you should read back on your post. You're increasingly sounding more and more unhinged. Take a deep breath, and try to work through your thoughts. You're an adult, or at any rate, that's what I've been led to believe.

                              Originally posted by Dierienow
                              Last time I installed this game I had trouble getting Trench Wars to show green back in April or May. Other zones are permanently red no matter what I try.
                              Fortunately the billing server was rebooted recently, and this fixed the issue of TW, EG and Chaos not showing up in the directory server. Also, the Steam version still has an updated version of the zone list that doesn't require you to get the listings from the directory server.
                              "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
                              -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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                              • #30
                                You don't need to eliminate pub bux to make improvements. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. Roof turret, a terr you can attach to in the FR, buying portals/repels/bursts (timegated, of course) are all fine. Thors are not. If it makes you cackle after using it, it probably doesn't belong in the game. There's plenty of good game design out there to draw from. Ultimates in LoL have long cooldowns, and everyone has access to one. Many games eschew pay-to-win and use currency for cosmetic upgrades only. Some games require killstreaks without dying to trigger a powerful effect.

                                Some suggestions:

                                1) eliminate Super and Thor, and anything else that is horribly broken. You can have things to buy that are more balanced and don't ruin base games. If thors were slow enough to be repelled by a shark and the thor was earned via strong play, it would be more tolerable.
                                2) get rid of the levi and replace it with a ship with new specs. this has already been done multiple times with other ships.
                                3) limit the amount of repel-using ships on each freq. i think has been done before, and should be in place. 3 sharks max per freq.
                                4) distension had some good ideas to draw inspiration from for powers and ships, maybe look at that.
                                5) fireworks are awful and get in the way of seeing what is happening in the game. they serve no purpose.

                                These feel like pretty simple and easy-to-implement solutions that would have a positive impact on pub.
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