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  • #31
    Originally posted by Claushouse
    There was absolutely no need to try to implement the Elim style ratings fluctuations on the value of each kill, because in Elim you can avoid the good players and just spec after bagging scrubs early. You can't avoid the good players in TSL or you miss out on the win bonus. Also, most veterans knockout newbies early then fight the better players late, so it doesn't add anything.
    For the most part the formula's the same. You'd earn about .7 for killing an unranked/low-tier player, and about 1.7 for a 100-rated.

    As I understand it, the issue we were seeing was that at the beginning of a match, many vets were competing to wipe out the new players as fast as possible. Only huge scores end up counting, so it's an absolute necessity to get as many easy kills as possible before the chance dries up. Meanwhile, if you're an average player, running away from a top player is the best course of action if they're worth the same as anyone else. As you point out, this mirrors normal strategy -- take out the newbies, save vets for the end. But it was becoming more extreme. Risking death on the chance that you might not die and perhaps will fluke into a great score... because the point is, only a good score is meaningful in TSL. You need to win, of course, but also have a rare performance. Both of those are 100% essential. Just trying to win the game and do right by your team isn't enough to actually excel in TSL. And the factor you have more agency over is getting that fluke performance, particularly at the start of the match when the competition is lighter.

    This wasn't such a problem in the beginning of TSL, because I think this strategy hadn't quite evolved yet. I'm not sure just going back unweighted kills would make everything better. Certainly could be tried, though. But I'm guessing we'd see similar issues once more. As I understand, this is one of the reasons TSL began feeling less and less satisfying. Felt more like gambling. Not sure how to get away from that. It's played as a team game but when it's all down to personal score, everyone's going to (have to) rec. Even if the win bonus is 50, and you receive 0 rating for losing, the optimum strategy is still to rush the newbies at the start, even if you risk careless deaths. Hope you don't take too many deaths scraping up the easy bites ... and then hope your team wins. If you don't get those easy kills at the start while taking a small # of deaths, it doesn't matter whether your team wins or not. The performance is null. So that means your win actually kinda feels like a loss. (Again, this is all couched within the non-committal "As I understand it...", which is to say, my understanding is that of an outsider, garnered mostly from impressions I've taken from various people in the community.)

    It might be worth looking at simple match W/L % as the determining factor. Given roughly even teams, who at the end of the season (and having played at least X games) wins the largest percentage of their games? Just brainstorming. Because as long as getting as many lucky personal performances as possible is the key to winning TSL, it's probably just not going to feel much like winning. And you're going to have a lot of frustrating games along the way to that "win." If we can reframe it more toward winning matches somehow, as just about every other team-based league runs, we might be able to get away from that underwhelming feeling.


    On a separate note, I believe the WB and Jav matchmaking ratings have been automatic for the past two seasons? I sent Qan the formulas to remove human input after Season 1. I know they weren't implemented in Season 2 due to time constraints, but I think they were slated for Season 3. I didn't play S3 or S4 so I'm not sure if it got added.
    The ratings are floating currently, yeah. Also due to time constraints, after public discussion it was vastly simplified (what's simple on an Excel sheet is often not so simple in code, especially on 17-18+ year old Frankenstein tech like MatchBot). If your performance was a small margin better than an average 1:1, +1. If weaker, -1. If you won the match, +1. If you lost, -1. Base was a little more difficult, but basically, we took the average value of basing performances for the previous season. If your value was in the bottom 25% of performances, -1; +1 if top 25%. Then +2 for win, -2 for loss. Players could observe rating changes live after each match.

    A group of TSLOps still adjusted scores. One would put in a rating, and another Op would need to approve. One of the biggest problems in early TSL was the dark horse phenomenon, where players unknown to the TW competitive scene, often pros from other zones, would play games at a rating of 40. It was honestly way too much work for one person. So Ops put in a ton of work giving many people initial ratings, and after that point the bot could take over.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Major Crisis View Post
      Anyone who won something moved there and you can see it in the TWD games too, they are extremely boring. Or are you saying you enjoy playing games which end 50-30 all the time? I wouldnt be too surprised if you did...
      I play TWD with the same people I've been playing TWD with since I was with Zidane and Mattey on Sage (TWL S15) and BONK! (TWDT 2011), when we had 0 titles to our names and had won nothing.

      I play with the same people today.

      That our group has won a lot of titles has nothing to do with it. It's not my fault Fierce, Dice, Pene, etc. quit. If they were all still here, I'd still be playing with the same people, even if we weren't favored.
      S18 TWLB Champ
      S19 TWLB Runner-Up
      S20 TWLD/TWLJ/TWLB Champ
      S21 TWLB Runner-Up
      S8/S9/S10 TWDT-D/TWDT-J/TWDT-B Champ
      S11 TWDT-B Runner-Up
      S12 TWDT-B Champ
      S13 TWDT-B Runner-Up
      S14 TWDT-B Champ
      S16 TWDT-B Runner-Up

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      • #33
        I dont think TWL is going to work because there isnt enough shit talking anymore. Except for Steadman vs the world, but thats only because he has some religious issues with bacon and beer.

        A few years ago there were some good squad rivalries going on, Thunder and Dice for example. Riverside vsing Racka and so on. I had some too and while it was never personal it made the game much more fun and competitive. People were trying hard!

        Today, the population has dwindled so much we are all just one big, happy, dysfunctional redneck family. TWDT is good.
        Originally posted by jerome
        can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Jones View Post
          I dont think TWL is going to work because there isnt enough shit talking anymore. Except for Steadman vs the world, but thats only because he has some religious issues with bacon and beer.

          A few years ago there were some good squad rivalries going on, Thunder and Dice for example. Riverside vsing Racka and so on. I had some too and while it was never personal it made the game much more fun and competitive. People were trying hard!

          Today, the population has dwindled so much we are all just one big, happy, dysfunctional redneck family. TWDT is good.
          Think their still is rivalries, Racka, Beam, Best , Vys, Mythril are all that opposite of wherever I am. I have never joined a squad with them on in years because quite simply I love the rivalry, Racka getting mad when I spawn him, Beam shouting newbie from spec. I realised this is what keeps me warbirding.
          Thats why I was in Force/Potenza and now Envy as that is the new opposite force.
          British> my 18th tomoz $$
          Sol ^> 18 and scouse, so that two kids you have by now, brit? :)

          i.d.> I just farted and shit myself alittle bit

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          • #35
            while in theory it is possible to have a rather good TWL season with few solid teams I feel it would do harm than good to the zone given how the league by design only caters to a very small competitive player base while excluding those of lesser skill from the fun, and in all fairness it seems like most of the competitive top players do not want TWL to return to preserve its legacy.

            .. and to not derail from the topic: TSL to me seems like something that can't be sustained for a longer period of time, but can work as a temporary bandaid to stop the bleeding. I do not have the competitive drive to participate in any shape or form, but if the community wants it to return then I see no harm in it.

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            • #36
              twl dun ded, give it up.

              twl was always play with whoever you want to play with within normal squad size limitations. if you restrict the limitations to something ridiculous its no longer twl, its basically twdt.

              the fact is we no longer have the population to support a real twl. on top of that everyone has gotten old and now have lives that require doing other stuff on sundays. few people really go out of their way (or have the ability to go out of their way) to make it a point to play a 20 year old vidya game for 6 hours in the middle of a sunday.

              twdt, tsl, revamped twd and elim are all reasons people can still come back to the game and try to flex their 2d spaceship competitive muscles. we're making the best of what we have left, yall.

              the event i would suggest are some single day mini-tourneys. 3vs3 double elimination tournaments that end on the same day. would work out for either wb or jav though not on the same day. maybe give each team the option of a 4th player to allow for a sub. 16 teams of 4 give you 48 players. team creation totally up to the players themselves. its nothing fancy and there are no ratings or gimmicks, but it would all be done on the same day. an added benefit is that i assume there'd be basically 0 coding involved since nothing is outside the normal gameplay.

              with some decent advertisement leading up to it i think you could make it a nice success. there would be a healthy amount of trash talk in the later rounds since thered probably be some observers that would stick around.

              it certainly isnt TWL, but it should end up pitting the best vs the best in the end.
              sigpic

              1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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              • #37
                Claushouse, Turbin, and MC are right. TWL would be pointless at this point, and the finals would be so predictable. I do not think TWL would be healthy for majority of the zone and as clause said, it kills twd.

                MC is right n the sense most elite players have congregated to 2 squads. I don't know why this is, but there are a few dudes who still enjoy vsing them (see Wolf).

                TSL type matchmaking leagues are the future and we should strive to add more events to TSL.

                Bug anyone? Attack? Fighter? I'm sure you smart kids can come up with a different dynamic, fun game type (if it's even required).

                The matchmaking system is probably the best suited for these times since it mixes up players every game. Sure, sometimes there isn't a big pool of players and the matchmakings suck for a few games but it's not perfect.

                Don't get me wrong, I love TWDT. It's great for the zone but I feel like if and when the top tier pilots are less willing to cap (or just quit the game), TWDT could collapse if there are no more competent captains left.

                Every year it seems to be a struggle to find adequate guys willing to cap.

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                • #38
                  TWL _COULD_ work with very strict roster limitations of like 10 or 12. I've been telling this ever since TWL died.

                  I think the better way to go would be short mini-tournaments like zeebu suggested which would last from 1 week to 4 weeks. Just enforce very strict roster limitations (starting 5 + 1 sub in wb/jav --- starting 8 + 1/2 in base). This way we could actually get highly competetive games. It could be run seperately for each ship so you could form different teams for each division.

                  Not quite TWL, not quite TWDT but potential to be highly competetive.

                  For example, I enjoy very much playing 4s+ TWJD games when the lineup consist only 8*+ players.
                  Season 12 champion TWLD / TWLJ
                  Season 18 champion TWLJ / TWLB
                  Season 19 champion TWLB (C)

                  Season 6 champion TWDT-J TWDT-B (C)
                  Season 10 champion TWDT-J (C)
                  Season 11 champion TWDT-B (C)
                  Season 13 champion TWDT-B (C)
                  The winningest TWDT captain of all time

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                  • #39
                    OK I give up I understand people's feelings, thanks for taking the time to think about it, i excited myself lol.

                    Concerning TSL, all that matters to me is that Ogron or Wirah or whoever else do the array of winners don't forget to add me on base season 4, and don't forget my eagle banner please, I'll smile when entering the arena.
                    Trasher> lol hellrazor

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dreamwin View Post
                      TWL _COULD_ work with very strict roster limitations of like 10 or 12. I've been telling this ever since TWL died.

                      I think the better way to go would be short mini-tournaments like zeebu suggested which would last from 1 week to 4 weeks. Just enforce very strict roster limitations (starting 5 + 1 sub in wb/jav --- starting 8 + 1/2 in base). This way we could actually get highly competetive games. It could be run seperately for each ship so you could form different teams for each division.

                      Not quite TWL, not quite TWDT but potential to be highly competetive.

                      For example, I enjoy very much playing 4s+ TWJD games when the lineup consist only 8*+ players.
                      thats why i suggested only a single day format with a bunch of small teams. early games would have to be run concurrently. it would make sense to have it seeded as well, everyone knows who the favorites would be. i thought about suggesting 4s with a sub but im not sure we could field 16 teams of 5. thats 80 people... i dont think there would be enough people to run a day long squad for that. thats why i'd push for only 3s.

                      im ignoring base altogether because i know we dont have the population to run more than ... maybe... 3 competitive teams of 8. probably not even that.
                      sigpic

                      1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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                      • #41
                        Did borrowing even exist during the last twl? I feel like it didn't and this is probably the only reason twd has remained fairly active (when tsl wasn't running). Of course it could work if we have 6 teams with 25+ showing for dt there's no reason to expect 8 teams of 15 or 6 teams of 20 to not show.

                        Obviously when you get into roster limits base complicates things. One of the main reasons twl 21 was seen as being unsuccessful was the amount of delays and the season was just too long with how the playoff bracket was set up (winner and loser bracket). There's no logical explanation as to why twl should kill twd, if anything teams should want to twd more for practice. Also ogron stating twd was dead during twl for the past 5 seasons is just 100% false. Twd started to die in s20 and borrows brought it back from the grave slightly. Twld and twlj could easily happen and be competitive, the question is whether twlb should be played at the same time since it would be hard to have as many teams (especially if small roster limits given to balance talent out)

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                        • #42
                          TWL or a tournament of its type would need to last no more than a month.
                          No preseason, Two weeks of qualifiers each team playing twice a week much like Twdt, then strait onto semis and then the finals a week after.
                          British> my 18th tomoz $$
                          Sol ^> 18 and scouse, so that two kids you have by now, brit? :)

                          i.d.> I just farted and shit myself alittle bit

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Claushouse View Post
                            I play TWD with the same people I've been playing TWD with since I was with Zidane and Mattey on Sage (TWL S15) and BONK! (TWDT 2011), when we had 0 titles to our names and had won nothing.

                            I play with the same people today.

                            That our group has won a lot of titles has nothing to do with it. It's not my fault Fierce, Dice, Pene, etc. quit. If they were all still here, I'd still be playing with the same people, even if we weren't favored.
                            I am not saying you did do anything wrong or w/e. All I am saying is that Envy and Zombie should consider how long this can go. Like someone already said here, how long Wolf/Sulake etc gonna even TWD? In the end it might end up only us TWDing each other and the other squads avoiding us. Which in the end will just kill TWD and make people quit on all squads due to even competition.
                            Major Crisis

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                            • #44
                              @zid

                              I forgot about borrowing, I guess TWD could maybe survive a TWL with that. Still think it's a bad idea.

                              @attacks

                              I have always wanted to see an Elim League. Elim is fun when there's lots of people playing -- hell, I would argue that Elim in it's prime was considered more important than TWL. So many people just weren't available on Sundays or didn't care about leagues. I personally couldn't play TWL during high school/college because of sports commitments, and didn't even follow the league during the early to mid 2000s. Elim Top 100 was what it was all about.

                              Elim ladder means nothing now, of course, due to people playing in games with 6 people, and players cheating. I see people getting fed or hunting other competitors on aliases with intentionally low rating to hurt them. It's a joke.

                              If you had an Elim league that ran for X weeks with a set schedule, you could get a lot of players and have a cool Elim experience that matters. No aliases or other bullshit, with a host monitoring the game.

                              Use Kill + Plus-Minus + Win Bonus for every elim match (run two WB matches, then two Jav matches each gameday, and have it 2 days per week. You would have 20 elim games per league in a 5 week season.

                              Take each player's 10 best games and sum them, and you got a league. Then host a final with the 10 best players in, and declare a champion. List the 10 players and the champion in the arena graphic, and you're got a success.
                              S18 TWLB Champ
                              S19 TWLB Runner-Up
                              S20 TWLD/TWLJ/TWLB Champ
                              S21 TWLB Runner-Up
                              S8/S9/S10 TWDT-D/TWDT-J/TWDT-B Champ
                              S11 TWDT-B Runner-Up
                              S12 TWDT-B Champ
                              S13 TWDT-B Runner-Up
                              S14 TWDT-B Champ
                              S16 TWDT-B Runner-Up

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by zidane View Post
                                Did borrowing even exist during the last twl? I feel like it didn't and this is probably the only reason twd has remained fairly active (when tsl wasn't running). Of course it could work if we have 6 teams with 25+ showing for dt there's no reason to expect 8 teams of 15 or 6 teams of 20 to not show.

                                Obviously when you get into roster limits base complicates things. One of the main reasons twl 21 was seen as being unsuccessful was the amount of delays and the season was just too long with how the playoff bracket was set up (winner and loser bracket). There's no logical explanation as to why twl should kill twd, if anything teams should want to twd more for practice. Also ogron stating twd was dead during twl for the past 5 seasons is just 100% false. Twd started to die in s20 and borrows brought it back from the grave slightly. Twld and twlj could easily happen and be competitive, the question is whether twlb should be played at the same time since it would be hard to have as many teams (especially if small roster limits given to balance talent out)

                                Nah borrowing has got there waaaay after.

                                I agree that twld and twlj could be competitive, but I think it will only be if we get strict roster limits, so it wont be 10+ ppl on a squad who could easily start on any other squad, but the people wanna stay together for what? The chatting? We can still chat with each other, no need to squad with each other just for that. Yea, I understand you have preferance of who you wanna play with, so do I. TWLB might be impossible yea.. Especially if you wanna pull this together with the same TWLJ/TWLD teams. Imo we could just do this 'javing' and 'warbird' cup as we did with basing cup, but instead of having captains pick, people should just signup with a team. Just like someone mentioned before, but I dont agree it should be played all on the same day. With TWDT there is different leagues you play, so its a change... But I cant imagine playing 6 wb games after each other, same for jav or base. (atleast if wb/jav is best of 3).

                                Teams of 6 sounds good enough, everyone will have 1 sub if needed. Or you could do 4v4 and end up with 5 on a team.. Maybe that will be better to spread the competition a bit more. I have talked about this before, but if we can get 16 teams (dunno if thats too high?) we could create 4 groups. #1 of Group A faces #2 of Group B like in a World Cup. Could even do it that #3 and #4 keep facing each other too, this way no one will really be excluded from playing. Play 3 games on a sunday and you can head to the quarter, semi and final. Those can easily be played on the week after with good coordination. You could do first two weeks of warbird, then javelin and then make something work for basing again. Then you have a nice amount of time before you might start a new TWDT season.. Or something else...

                                Someone mentioned Attack tourny here, I dunno how that worked (wasnt around when that happened). But I wonder if enough people are interested in those kind of tourny's. Because if there is, enough events can be turned into a decent tourny imo.

                                twl 21 was a complete mess indeed.
                                Major Crisis

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