American Elections '08

[Kolar]

The difference is Vati is I would make a strong logical argument which can be backed up. I'm not asking for citation or sourcing for every spec of text posted, just have it make some sense and if required give us something besides a youtube video or static html page which lists no credentials or sourcing.

We do live in a smaller world then 100 years ago because of technology, the fact that we all can communicate with each other is amazing given the distances between us. With all of this new technology it's possible for many groups to work around that nation state boarders, the invisible lines we perceive as our own. We can agree on that without going any deeper because we're both well informed and educated people. I believe people like Heaven and T0NE only care about the entertainment value in "discussing" these things, and I say discussing in quotations because they treat this forum like a personal blog 90% of the time, the other 10 is accusing the rest of us as being programmed or closed minded.

Edit: And actually Heaven has had a lot more meaner things to say about me and other forum members. I rarely post to antagonize people, and if I ever do it's not with malice.

[Vatican Assassin]

I said I don't take his opinions to heart because of who he is, and then I even stated regardless if the congressman was racist he may still have opinions which are correct and well-informed. I basically accepted that the man may not have been such an ass-bag, I was open to the idea that his words would be fully accepted in accordance with who he was. I conceded HeavenSent's quote and allowed him to continue on his path to 'showing me' how it truly was destroying America.

But then again all he's done is tell me that two dead congressman said the U.N is bad along with some questionable videos, this isn't good enough for me to even take seriously.

Proving that The U.N is destroying America is not as easy as quoting some congressman and then saying that's it, he said it so it must be true. Trying to make me believe something so questionable as the U.N destroying America cannot be solved or answered by Youtube videos, it takes actual work and observation and then once he has a few points he can express them, and he finally did. His major point was that soldiers should not be accountable for their actions, which could basically say 'well then neither should the nazis, they were only following orders'.

I don't think his major point was that soldiers shouldn't be held accountable. I think he is saying that American soldiers shouldn't have to take orders from Non American Nations or Leagues. You conceded the racist part, which I noticed, but then you brought up his racism again, so you must still be thinking about it at least a little bit.

edit: world economics are common knowledge? damn maybe canada is better than USA, I thought there was a lot to it. I don't think you can explain world economics without going into the IMF and World Banks which the UN and USA have been using to take control of those less powerful countries. USA used to have tarriffs and we were doing great, then we dropped them all and now China is taking our place. Lets just agree that it is complicated when you really get into it. Saying "poverty is the result of world economics" doesn't really tell me too much.

[Cops]

poverty is a result of world economics. Countries that have more power and less tariffs result in a better economy. Bad spending and leadership can lead to a lack of business and infrastructure, misplaced spending leads to poverty. Why would people invest in a country that is unstable?

This isn't too hard to understand, the more trade you do, the more money you bring in. The less taxes you pay on your exports, the more money you have coming in. The more money you make from trade, the more businesses are needed to accommodate this market.

If you really want me to explain on how world economics work, and how trade, tariffs and subsidies work then I gladly will. Most of this is common knowledge though.

[Vatican Assassin]

It goes to the character of the person Vati. Like I said before you wouldn't consult David Duke or Pat Robertson about issues of foreign policy because they're pretty terrible people with extremist views. For someone to be so warped on domestic issues to think the K*K is a legitimate and good organization I have to believe their views on international matters has to be as equally misinformed.

would you rather go into surgery with a doctor who is an expert but hates jews, or with a real nice guy who doesn't know what he's doing. ok if you aren't jewish then. i don't know what the senator knows, but I'm pretty sure that as a senator he knows a little bit more than you, I, or David Duke. If you want to disregard the statements of racists, you're censoring a lot of world history. long story short, you still have to listen to and verify statements of extremists.

[Vatican Assassin]

We already live in a boarder-less world. War is now terrorism, poverty is now the result of shifts in world economics and poor government, environmental degradation is now a global problem (hence global warming). Terrorism is also a problem that goes beyond the scope of one nation, this requires a legal frame work that extends beyond the reaches of a national boarder, and is legitimately recognized.

When you're pressed to provide some backing to your statements the thing NOT TO DO is accuse people of being close minded or lacking in intellectual ability. That only serves to hamper the quality of discourse and damages your image.

you're right at the end kolar, but i think you do also tend to say a lot of things without backing them up. we live in a boarderless world because war is terrorism? i still see boarders between countries, don't you? poverty is now the result of shifts in world economics? i'm not entirely sure what that means, could be true, but i don't think it makes sense to say such huge statements and then berate heavensent for not backing up his own opinions.

just so you know, i think paul and heaven are incorrect on this issue: if we pull out of the UN, we're fucked. everyone already hates us enough already. if we leave the UN, every country will be in a league and we will be excluded, and I don't want any countries looking to China for help.

edit: if you don't have any opinions on this subject, and just want to chime in with something mean and not funny toward someone you usually disagree with, please save your breath.

[Epinephrine]

Truth is telling me I should really watch the last legion.

Aishwarya Rai $$

[Cops]

you keep saying the guy is racist, everything else aside I think heavensent has a good point: its irrelevent. everyone has sinned, you can dig up something bad about anyone. if we were in court, and you were forming a case like you say, bringing up the fact that the senator was racist would be stricken from the record as irrelevent, please stop bringing it up. stick to the argument he makes.

I said I don't take his opinions to heart because of who he is, and then I even stated regardless if the congressman was racist he may still have opinions which are correct and well-informed. I basically accepted that the man may not have been such an ass-bag, I was open to the idea that his words would be fully accepted in accordance with who he was. I conceded HeavenSent's quote and allowed him to continue on his path to 'showing me' how it truly was destroying America.

But then again all he's done is tell me that two dead congressman said the U.N is bad along with some questionable videos, this isn't good enough for me to even take seriously.

Proving that The U.N is destroying America is not as easy as quoting some congressman and then saying that's it, he said it so it must be true. Trying to make me believe something so questionable as the U.N destroying America cannot be solved or answered by Youtube videos, it takes actual work and observation and then once he has a few points he can express them, and he finally did. His major point was that soldiers should not be accountable for their actions, which could basically say 'well then neither should the nazis, they were only following orders'.

[Kolar]

It goes to the character of the person Vati. Like I said before you wouldn't consult David Duke or Pat Robertson about issues of foreign policy because they're pretty terrible people with extremist views. For someone to be so warped on domestic issues to think the K*K is a legitimate and good organization I have to believe their views on international matters has to be as equally misinformed.

[Vatican Assassin]

Common knowledge is not 'The U.N is destroying America', because if this was common knowledge we wouldn't have a U.N. When you try to sway or prove controversial beliefs you need a little more than some youtube websites and the beliefs of a few dead racist congressmen.

you keep saying the guy is racist, everything else aside I think heavensent has a good point: its irrelevent. everyone has sinned, you can dig up something bad about anyone. if we were in court, and you were forming a case like you say, bringing up the fact that the senator was racist would be stricken from the record as irrelevent, please stop bringing it up. stick to the argument he makes.

[Cops]

Are you so blind you cannot accept that the next time your daughter walks instead of drives, baby eating is not far away? Mattel and countless other corporations have already ruined her, yours and all of our minds. BE OPEN TO THE TRUTH.

Truth is telling me I should really watch the last legion.

[Epinephrine]

STFU hypocrite.
Go back to playing with your anime dolls. That's obviously the only reality you can handle.

Are you so blind you cannot accept that the next time your daughter walks instead of drives, baby eating is not far away? Mattel and countless other corporations have already ruined her, yours and all of our minds. BE OPEN TO THE TRUTH.

[Cops]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not null the Bill of Rights or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is an advisory document which provides a frame work, it's not an enforceable piece of law.

The implications of it not existing can lead to mass deaths and excusable apathy. Anything that can be justified will be justified.

[Kolar]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not null the Bill of Rights or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is an advisory document which provides a frame work, it's not an enforceable piece of law. We know it isn't because we still have shitty places like China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Iran just to name a few who govern their people by a different (and arguable more barbaric) standard. The UN is a forum for the governments of the world to come to a consensus on issues, no one country can solve problems like global warming, poverty or war alone.

We already live in a boarder-less world. War is now terrorism, poverty is now the result of shifts in world economics and poor government, environmental degradation is now a global problem (hence global warming). Terrorism is also a problem that goes beyond the scope of one nation, this requires a legal frame work that extends beyond the reaches of a national boarder, and is legitimately recognized.

When you're pressed to provide some backing to your statements the thing NOT TO DO is accuse people of being close minded or lacking in intellectual ability. That only serves to hamper the quality of discourse and damages your image.

[HeavenSent]

OK i'm done.. I won't bother your sleep on this issue anymore. <_<

[Cops]

You're like the guy that asks, "Hey man, tell me about that movie."

"I'll do better than that." replies the other guy, "I'll loan you a copy of the movie to see for yourself"

"But I don't want to watch the movie" says the first guy, "I just want you to tell me about it."

"Well it's just about a guy that gets deceived even after he's warned several times. Then ends up imprisoned for being at the wrong place at the wrong time... gets in a scuffle with one of the prison guards and is executed like an animal for slaughter. Then his body is thrown in a pit full of dead bodies. The end."

"No way! You're full of shit. That's not like anything I've heard of the movie."

"Well here's the video. See for yourself."

"No thanks, I'll just ask someone else who's seen it."

The thing is I don't want to see a movie, I want you to explain to me how you've come up with such ludicrous conclusions, well I know you're mimicking the opinions of those videos but are those United States vs United Nations videos even credible? No, anyone can upload a video to youtube. Stop wasting my time and confusing the point, which is Tell me how the U.N destroys America. No more videos, no more links to crappy sites, I want you to make a case of why this hurts America.

Basically, the problems with the U.N. and how it affects Americans is that it would mean that our Constitutional rights would be null & void. No Bill of Rights, No Habeas Corpus, No 2nd, 4th, 5th, etc. Amendment rights AT ALL. Its goal is a world government, where it would be the only authority among borderless nations. American soldiers, would have to answer to its world court... just for following the orders of their superior officer. American citizens would have to pay taxes to the U.N. And there would be no opportunity for people to speak out against its imposing injustice. Like Ron Paul says about forcing peace through a barrel of a gun, that's exactly how it would be around the world, only much worse. It's Global Totalitarianism & Marxist Socialism at its most horrifying and worst inevitable reality.

Thank you, it only took you 20 posts to answer my question and actually say something without dropping videos and ignoring the fact that most logical people are laughing at you behind your back, I knew you'd finally state an opinion even if its more or less you being a sycophant.

where it would be the only authority among borderless nations. American soldiers, would have to answer to its world court... just for following the orders of their superior officer

you want to shoot a tribe of defenseless people, of course you should answer to someone. Nazi soldiers were just 'following' orders, how can you even dare say they shouldn't answer to their crimes against humanity. If you think American soldiers should not be accountable than neither should the nazis.

You speak so vividly of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms but the point is to insure that all people of all countries rights are protected under some legislation. Once this is gone, people can and will justify other's lives by saying their freedoms and rights are not universally protected. 'An American has rights where as a person from Zimbabwe does not'.

Like Ron Paul says about forcing peace through a barrel of a gun, that's exactly how it would be around the world, only much worse. It's Global Totalitarianism & Marxist Socialism at its most horrifying and worst inevitable reality.

The United Nations is known for diplomacy, they do have a branch of the UN called the UNEF which responds to crisis's and genocide all across the world. If genocide is happening it is the UN's responsibility to step in, this is a good thing, which all people from all countries can adhere to. Plus you know just as well as I do that America can veto anything they damn well please, for a country who claims to be the fighters of freedom and democracy you sure don't know how to utilize your own power.

Since we can talk history, I hope you do not forget the UN did not sanction a war between Iraq and America, they wanted to see this situation ended in diplomacy. It was America that wanted to force peace and democracy through the barrel of a gun, not just in Iraq but also in Vietnam, and how many other countless countries?