TWL-B Semi-Finals - Plade vs. Fire - Appeal GRANTED (Discussion)

[Zizzo]

You mean attaching so I don't die to the burst, in an area where the burst doesn't even reach cram? The horror.

No I mean timing the attach so you both eat the burst (which didn't happen on whoever's screen this recording was from) and save yourself. Of course I'm not being very serious but it's very common glitch people abuse daily

[kess]

No I mean timing the attach so you both eat the burst (which didn't happen on whoever's screen this recording was from) and save yourself. Of course I'm not being very serious but it's very common glitch people abuse daily

Disagree there. Its super common to bait repped mines or bursts and attach to dodge.
Dont think ease meant to eat it, but just expected the burst and baited. I mean, even if he planned to est that burst, it would be a risk because you could miss the timing and die, and that burst is going nowhere near the cram, it would only be dangerous to him.

[Zizzo]

Disagree there. Its super common to bait repped mines or bursts and attach to dodge.
Dont think ease meant to eat it, but just expected the burst and baited. I mean, even if he planned to est that burst, it would be a risk because you could miss the timing and die, and that burst is going nowhere near the cram, it would only be dangerous to him.

Yeah maybe, maybe not. Anyhow I'm not seriously accusing anyone of anything. Just saying attaching out in front of a burst is very common way of abusing a glitch. Also I think that's fine and part of the game like attaching to dead terriers, everyone knows how to do it and there's nothing that can be done about it with the resources we have. Unlike the glitch that happened with dreamwin. It's been known for years and is relatively easy to fix.

What the hell was dreamwin supposed to do anyway? Sit in the spawn area for 15 seconds like a duck while the enemy team was 30 seconds away from victory? There's no way for him to tell when he's visible on others' screen again.

[Rab]

I think attaching to eat a burst/mine/bomb is a legit tactic, not something I do often, but I do respect people who do it. There is a cost in energy and opportunity cost to doing it, which I leverage to punish players who use this tactic against me. I think usually when players eat a burst to defend their cram that's not worthwhile for them.

[project dragon]

Question qan Wirah :

Does the bot fix for shipchanges affect player switches (substitutions, switching ships between players)? It could be hard to get two ships to not be dead in order to switch ships. Main uses are switching sharks or terrs immediately after they die as to not lose time, but that would require the other player being switched to not be respawning either, which could potentially delay the switch.

[Gkyde1234]

2020 Is wild rab who has sent the most cheater calls for lag says he respects lagers who can exploit a lag attach to eat damage

[Rab]

2020 Is wild rab who has sent the most cheater calls for lag says he respects lagers who can exploit a lag attach to eat damage

The stuff I report is when people have a clear advantage at no cost due to lag. Totally different thing.

[Zizzo]

I think attaching to eat a burst/mine/bomb is a legit tactic, not something I do often, but I do respect people who do it. There is a cost in energy and opportunity cost to doing it, which I leverage to punish players who use this tactic against me. I think usually when players eat a burst to defend their cram that's not worthwhile for them.

Yeah sure me too but ultimately it's abusing a glitch

[Zizzo]

Question qan Wirah :

Does the bot fix for shipchanges affect player switches (substitutions, switching ships between players)? It could be hard to get two ships to not be dead in order to switch ships. Main uses are switching sharks or terrs immediately after they die as to not lose time, but that would require the other player being switched to not be respawning either, which could potentially delay the switch.

The whole problem is because the change is done while you're dead

edit: Oops I misread. Like many have suggested could just add some time penalty after the switch

[paradise!]

I don’t even want to keep on posting on this since the verdict has already been rendered and it can’t be challenged no matter what, which is bullshit, but since you’re treating me like a retard, I’ll have to respond for the final time, hopefully.

First of all I’d like to say I’m sorry that I’m basing myself on the rules, which is only something that’s been done on this game for the last TWENTY YEARS, up until now, I’m really stupid for doing that. My bad.

Second of all, everything you’ve been saying is full of assumptions that dreamwin actually wanted to turn himself invisible to destroy Fire’s cram.

Yes, we have video evidence showing that that he went invisible and shot a bomb and yes, it’s not fair that it happened, but did dreamwin really want that to happen???

Do you really think that while there is 1 minute left on the timer in a full on intense cram battle, he thought to himself “oh wow if I turned myself invisible in a jav right now and shot a bomb, that would be really badass??”

If you think that, that’s your ASSUMPTION.

What we know FOR SURE is that dreamwin typed a command to the bot to change himself into a javelin in a desperation move to break a cram…. Which is something that’s been done THOUSANDS of times before and it’s a tactic that’s been employed for TWENTY years. If this bug was so obvious and easy to abuse like you’re assuming, you’d think it would have been noticed and corrected in the last TWENTY years? or something would have been implemented about it into the rules??

Why is it that this super obvious bug that you’re alleging dreamwin intentionally made use of seems to have only happened at a frequency of about 1% in the last thousands of times that someone’s changed their ship to try to break a cram? That sure sounds like a game breaking bug that everyone should keep in mind to try to cheat and win a game with!!

All that's happened here is that with the way the settings are made and how the bots are programmed, the game behaved in a weird way that wasn’t fair, just like how lagging because of the server can be out of your control sometimes…

Do you sometimes want to call someone a cheater because of weird lag? Sure.. but is it something to get banned on? No.

Has there been times in TWL history where the game seemed unfair because of something like a server issue? Yes, off the top of my head I’ve seen a few times Fludd have some spike lag in critical situations of playoff games where he would proceed to tank bombs and kill someone in the last remaining deaths left which changed the game completely, similar to that bs jav bomb cram break.

But was there something done about that bs lag moment that made Fludd win? Nope.. why? Because there was no evidence to point that Fludd really abused his lag and there wasn’t anything in the rules to go against it.

So if we compare that kind of judgment to the dreamwin situation…
What is the evidence that he wanted to abuse a bug there..?
Is it because you are aware that a similar incident was reproduced by dreamwin once before, in the hundreds of times that he’s changed himself to a jav in order to break a cram?
Because he’s said that he's aware that this kind of bug exists... like many other people in the zone knew before?

If you can go ahead and prove to me that dreamwin willfully wanted to cheat by turning himself invisible and that he knew what he was doing, I’ll gladly accept I was wrong and I'll be on your side.. but for now you’re just giving me assumptions.. which is why the appeal verdict was just based off “feelings” which has never been done before in the last twenty years.

First of all, whether the bug is easy or hard to abuse is irrelevant. You are piecemeal'ing your bigger argument with weak claims. You claim he has "changed himself into jav" hundreds of times and never previously gone invisible. This is not a regular basing game. This would have to be a fantastic coincidence for the same person to have turned invisible in the exact same way in a high stakes game.

Second, you are again claiming this is an issue of bot mechanics that are outside the realm of control and happen in the progress of a regular game. I never argued against this. This is just a fact. It's clearly a limitation of the bots/game. But I SAY AGAIN: It is a community-defined reading of the rules that determines what is above and beyond regular manipulations of game mechanics. A jav turning invisible and emptying the cram within a fraction of a second is clearly much worse than switching to get more reps or lag attaching to avoid bursts/eat bursts for your team. And it is clearly much worse than Fludd's regular lag causing him to eat a bomb in a TWLJ game.

Third, whether it was intentional or not is also semi irrelevant. Was he aware that his ship would likely be invisible? Yes, thats inarguable. Whether it was intentional or not, I cannot explicitly prove, but I can only walk you through the basic logic that makes me conclude it: your team is about to lose, you need to break the cram, shit if it worked last time, then why not do it again? Your 1 in a 100 circumstance that you claim was supremely coincidental has only happened to this guy and only happened in the highest stake games.

I know you're on plade and have every reason to argue for your captain, but by our community's reading of the rules, this guy is a cheater. Think of it this way: what could Fire have reasonably done to stop dreamwin? How do you anticipate a bomb from an invisible ship? I'm not even of the mind that this should be replayed. That entire situation should be replayed with the same time and same setups. It sets a horrible precendent for what we as a community accept as OK. What's stopping me from coord pulling and teamfering the next time I jav myself? I can get a potential replay rather than a definite loss right? And I'll have your support then Singer. Because like you said, I've only done it a few times before and its not itemized in A1!

[Zizzo]

never previously gone invisible.

It happens every single time with similar circumstances so it shouldn't have surprised anyone.

How do you anticipate a bomb from an invisible ship?

What do you think he's gonna do? Shoot bullets from his ass? Of course he's going to bomb.

what could Fire have reasonably done to stop dreamwin?

It's certainly hard when you only have one spider shooting in the cram. While dreamwin was recharging Plade sharks repped every single spider bullet. There were also four ships in between dw and the enemy so there's no way they could have hit him anyway. Zidane was out of repels. What would have Fire done differently if they saw him? They still knew he was there even though they didn't see him

[Nipple Nibbler]

Y'all look like a bunch of 4 year olds fighting over some bubble gum. "he started it" "not fair it was my gum". Mommy and daddy made the decision to take the gum away. Now neither of you have your bubblegum. Quit whining and go earn it back.

The team that is better will win and earn the damn bubblegum.