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RaCka's Top 30 Warbirds Ever 2020 Edition

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  • #61
    I was bored waiting for DT to start up, figured I would necro this post. I looked through the data staff have given me about TWD for the players in Racka's original top Warbird list. I just wanted to see how they stacked up in simple TWDD matches.

    I only have data going back so far so some players have 0's but you can still see most people on this list dominating TWDD as well as the TWL titles everyone keeps mentioning.
    Siaxis> yo it was way harder to kill Rage then beam in that dtd

    rylo> 1.5 mil for whoever kills renzi
    (10 seconds later)
    rEnZi is out. 17 kills 10 deaths. 2 players remain.
    P TW-Pub> rylo sent you $1,500,000, you now have $4,047,199.

    If you're going to do a thing you should to it to the best of your ability or don't do it at all.

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    • #62
      lol 89% winrate

      Comment


      • #63
        Not a typo lol
        Siaxis> yo it was way harder to kill Rage then beam in that dtd

        rylo> 1.5 mil for whoever kills renzi
        (10 seconds later)
        rEnZi is out. 17 kills 10 deaths. 2 players remain.
        P TW-Pub> rylo sent you $1,500,000, you now have $4,047,199.

        If you're going to do a thing you should to it to the best of your ability or don't do it at all.

        Comment


        • #64
          Nice post Rack, forgot to reply, I disagree on 2 or 3 in place you gave them on the top 14.

          On the 15-30 guys, I'd say Vihta, Mega Newbie, Burnt, Blood and Banzi all have very good arguments to be on the top 14. Especially the last 2, who on raw skill alone are top 10 wbs. Blood has a better argument for leading and playing longer, but the old Banzi is one of the most iconic wbs in the game.

          On the top 15-30 guys I'd possibly remove Beam, Ruby, Weak, Weaver, and River, to add Lews Therin and FieryFire ( both won the first and second, and crossed generations, namely FF), Ripper, and Fireballz and Jack's prime.

          I also concur with zid's assessment on Best and his peak during that timeframe.

          And yea 89% win rate..he was on yesterday a little.

          Comment


          • #65
            i agree with banzi and blood.

            fieryfire, no. most of those players played against scrubs on 4k monitors against people with 800x600 in a TWLD which was smaller than TWDL and had no playoffs. You won TWL by winning the regular season. Most seasons were decided by the Week 2 match between Elusive and Siege. Whoever won 1 round went 10-0 and the season was already over.

            Fieryfire literally led a revolt against the res cap, then pretended he didn't care about WB anymore and was irrelevant by 2002.

            i don't you know why you keep glorifying 2000-2005, especially as a baser. you know all those people spent their time shitting on base and acting you're total trash, right?

            Fieryfire spent all his time writing cringe posts like this, and upper staff was corrupt as hell. Not only was 2dragons cheating in TWLB, they controlled the narrative of who was elite by propping up their own squads like Light and pretending TWL was the only real league.

            TWLB didn't exist until 2002, and there were no playoffs. Light (you know, the squad with the corrupt mods and the vets who controlled the game's leagues and history) won the regular season. They got a shiny red TWL medal on the TWD website. When basers, upset with the league format, decided to run a TWLB playoffs for s5, Light dissolved and refused to play, and proclaimed the winner of the playoffs (TWLB Cup) illegitimate.

            Guess who, to this day, doesn't have a TWLB medal on the website? Disoblige, for winning the s5 TWLB Cup, which was the playoffs.



            Epinephrine, the captain of Elusive, who won TWLD season 2, even readily admits the talent level grew exponentially in warbird by 2003. His A History of Trench Wars, written in 2002, states that TWDL was bigger than TWL in the early years and most squads ignored TWL.

            Yet TWDL still, to this day, doesn't have a single medal awarded to them. Scrotal's Horde won s3 of TWDL and they're excluded from the history pages and don't have a medal to their names despite beating elite warbirding squads in a league that was bigger than TWLD at the time, because people like Fieryfire controlled the narrative.

            You were fed a bunch of lies when you started playing in 2003, and you keep parroting them.



            Originally posted by Fieryfire
            Basing got popular cuz newbies who suck and can't play in leagues want to play basing cuz they get a chance to play..its true dont deny it.
            Originally posted by Ruby
            Amen.

            Edit: Even then, who won the first TWL-B? A dueling squad. IT CAN'T BE!
            Originally posted by blood
            that shit about basing is so true, basing is so much about luck and randomness. newbies get to feel important
            Originally posted by Crome
            For the newbies. Learn this shit. Its quite embarassing when you don't know who to respect.
            Originally posted by Fieryfire
            Javelins is still newbie cuz the players who couldnt win in warbirds (original league) decided they want a shot in another ship
            Last edited by Claushouse; 01-13-2021, 06:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Much of this is about who were on the best stacked squads consistently. TWEL is a better reference when it comes to who are best individual players in the zone.. Elim could be argued too as representation of who are the best players.

              I'm not tearing down most of Rackas list though.. many on the list I agree with but there are many talented great players who fell through cracks over time who played on lesser squads throughout their shorter SS careers and also a few I disagree with being on this list such as Beam who just get carried by playing on stacked teams their whole life which definitely pad any representative medals they have achieved.
              TWDT-J CHAMPION POWER 2018
              TWDT-B CHAMPION POWER 2018
              TWDT TRIPLE CROWN MEMBER POWER 2018
              TSL TRIPLE CROWN FINALIST 2018
              TSLD CHAMPION 2018
              TSLB CHAMPION 2018

              Comment


              • #67
                When is the 2021 edition coming out
                TWDTJ & TWDTB FINALIST 2019

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Claushouse View Post
                  i agree with banzi and blood.

                  fieryfire, no. most of those players played against scrubs on 4k monitors against people with 800x600 in a TWLD which was smaller than TWDL and had no playoffs. You won TWL by winning the regular season. Most seasons were decided by the Week 2 match between Elusive and Siege. Whoever won 1 round went 10-0 and the season was already over.

                  Fieryfire literally led a revolt against the res cap, then pretended he didn't care about WB anymore and was irrelevant by 2002.

                  i don't you know why you keep glorifying 2000-2005, especially as a baser. you know all those people spent their time shitting on base and acting you're total trash, right?

                  Fieryfire spent all his time writing cringe posts like this, and upper staff was corrupt as hell. Not only was 2dragons cheating in TWLB, they controlled the narrative of who was elite by propping up their own squads like Light and pretending TWL was the only real league.

                  TWLB didn't exist until 2002, and there were no playoffs. Light (you know, the squad with the corrupt mods and the vets who controlled the game's leagues and history) won the regular season. They got a shiny red TWL medal on the TWD website. When basers, upset with the league format, decided to run a TWLB playoffs for s5, Light dissolved and refused to play, and proclaimed the winner of the playoffs (TWLB Cup) illegitimate.

                  Guess who, to this day, doesn't have a TWLB medal on the website? Disoblige, for winning the s5 TWLB Cup, which was the playoffs.



                  Epinephrine, the captain of Elusive, who won TWLD season 2, even readily admits the talent level grew exponentially in warbird by 2003. His A History of Trench Wars, written in 2002, states that TWDL was bigger than TWL in the early years and most squads ignored TWL.

                  Yet TWDL still, to this day, doesn't have a single medal awarded to them. Scrotal's Horde won s3 of TWDL and they're excluded from the history pages and don't have a medal to their names despite beating elite warbirding squads in a league that was bigger than TWLD at the time, because people like Fieryfire controlled the narrative.

                  You were fed a bunch of lies when you started playing in 2003, and you keep parroting them.
                  So I think you're right about a lot of this, but if I'm understanding your entire post about FF, you're saying he was wrong that WBs weren't the elite players and WB leagues weren't clearly above basers and javs. If that is what you're saying, then I think you're wrong about the idea that the best players didn't all play WB early on. Primary Javs and Basers were all second-tier players early on, and all the best players in those leagues could WB as well.

                  As for the rest, you hit a lot of good points, but to claim Elusive or Siege weren't great is a bit weird, regardless of the quality of TWLD at the time. Scrotal's Horde was nowhere near as good as Elusive and Siege. The medal thing is a good point though, but honestly, nobody should be giving a shit about what medals the TWD page shows. Vys apparently only won recently, yet anyone that claimed he wasn't a great WB before that would have been called a moron, and rightly so. Some people just don't stack on squads like others. Anyone that doesn't admit it's far easier to win with great players around you is straight up lying. Jessup has a point, even though her lack of knowledge on how to team in the first place ruins her credibility in her statement.

                  For example, let's say Foxes/Geisha never joined a top squad and stayed on shit squads like Gantz or Paladen. Geisha would have still been considered a great player and put on this list, because anyone that recognizes skill would know it already. Winning TWL or not really wouldn't factor into it at all. It was more impressive what Geisha did on Gantz than anything he did later.
                  Last edited by Exalt; 01-14-2021, 12:36 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Exalt no, I think WB league was clearly, CLEARLY above Jav and Base around 2003-2008 in terms of talent, just by sheer population, and in terms of player development. 62% of all TWD games in 2003 were warbird, with Jav/Base splitting up the rest. That means that Warbird had triple the amount of players compared to jav or base individually, and TWLD was much further along in terms of the developement of elite players, which often takes years of practice (Jav and Base eventually caught up, obviously, and that stopped being true a long time ago.)

                    What I meant was Stayon is a baser, I don't get why he is promoting a player who spent his time gatekeeping warbird and calling everyone who played after 2002 trash, and claimed basers and javs were just untalented newbies who can't make it in warbird.

                    I think people played base and javelin because they're fun. That warbird went from 62% of all TWD games played in 2003 down to a low of 21% in 2013 (it's hovered around 29-30% the past decade) is evidence of that.

                    I think TWLD from like 2004-2008 may have been the hardest league to win, but for Fieryfire, we're talking about like 1999-2002. Some of those seasons with double the resolution size as the majority of the zone.

                    There were 94 spectators (source: Epinephrine) in August 2000 watching the league match between Elusive and Siege.

                    For comparison, there were 105 players watching the Basing Cup finals in 2020.

                    The zone's population was tiny and new. There were no playoffs. Half those seasons didn't have res caps and were blatantly unfair. Human memory is terrible, and people are just misremembering stuff.

                    Geisha is a great example, I'm glad you brought him up. Geisha, Turban, Deez Nuts, Ease, Racka, Mythril, Apok, etc. all came in the population explosion around 2002-2004 and took some time to develop. I started on Heavy with Apok in 2005 and he was still raw and it took years for him to develop into a superstar.

                    TWLJ and TWLB eventually became amazing, hyper-competitive leagues, and their late start means a good chunk of the best javs and basers kept playing until 2015-2016, and many returned in 2019-2020, which is great.

                    But the early, early TWLD stuff has been glorified and propagandized to an absurd degree. There were some great warbirds and great games, and a few stayed relevant 2003 and beyond, but not many. Most of them just spent years talking down to everyone pretending that everyone who played after them was worse, and that they couldn't be bothered to compete.
                    Last edited by Claushouse; 01-14-2021, 03:18 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Don't take my word for it, though, just read the comments from Fieryfire's thread in 2003.


                      Originally posted by triceratops
                      this isn't so much a history of trench wars dueling as it is an account of a washed up dipshit talking about how good he used to be.
                      Originally posted by Mythrandir
                      Jesus christ this is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, you're even worse than ZippyDan. Except that ZippyDan can write better.

                      I'm interested in a history of Warbird dueling, this post is just a very desperate attempt to inflate your ego. You seem to have that problem since you got axed from staff.

                      Javelin and basing got popular because it's fun, there is no other reason. People like to play it.
                      Originally posted by Gurumeditation
                      Back in those days you were the best in the park. Not many people were really challenging, and the best grouped up so they could beat down the others. Tactics were new, it was the time of the creators of Subspace tactics. A time when the lack of res restrictions meant those with bigger monitors ruled the land.
                      Originally posted by Zloy
                      For some reason im starting to think that the 'uberleetness' that was 'back then' has a very strong connection to the fact that in 1999 not many people had puters able to pull off that high resolutions, and after the res cap was put in TW, they stopped getting the magical 50-0 recs
                      Originally posted by Server
                      you werent that good back then. you would be owned if you had been that good nowdays. because average skill level has risen. even more and more ppl are good now. before tw didnt have much of duelers, now it has. so dont even compare old times and now days. because tw is better now days. -nt-
                      Originally posted by ConcreteSchlyrd
                      "Old Timey is the best timey."


                      Originally posted by Lite Brite
                      Anyone who was any good back then had to have a high res, not necessarily because they had skill. I had 800x600 rez back then
                      Originally posted by Bram
                      1. Most of your so called 'vet'-friends were powerhouses, is because there was no competition, now 600 ppl play every time u log on, back in '99 it was 60-100. So of course there was a lack of competition back in those days.
                        2. The only reason why these people were owning up elim is because they had 2048 res and others were playing with 800 and 1024 ... After lagrestrictions real skills were shown, and I don't remember seeing you or Sudden peak after. Also big ups to Jack for being one of in my eyes best wbs of all time, before and after lagrestrictions.
                      Originally posted by Eric is God
                      Some of us got just as far playing on 1024 or 1280 our entire careers like me, Soul Burner and others im sure. And yes it is worth pointing out that after the res restriction came in, many players dropped way off in performance. Regardless of what some will claim, it wasnt because they stopped trying.
                      Originally posted by Mutha-Trucka
                      In the name of the future. This has got to be the most bull-shit topic ever
                      Originally posted by Epinephrine
                      On average the skill level has risen so much in Trench Wars full domination is no longer possible as there are too many good players.
                      Originally posted by Sleepy Weasel
                      As someone who has played subspace since 1995, let me give you a bit of my personal perspective which is probably in line with a lot of later TW adopters. A lot of the stuff you accomplished, those 52-0 recs, was because there was 0 competition, at least Epi realizes this. Why? Because Trench for the first years of its existence was viewed as a joke.
                      Originally posted by Sleepy Weasel

                      my personal opinion has been that early TW consisted of a combination of: new players, players who couldn't hack it in SVS zones, and a rough handful of good players who actually liked the settings. So of course these good players dominated, who was the competition? Guys who had been playing for a couple months, or guys that had been kicked out of the other zones.

                      The other huge point is the lack of the res restriction which has been mentioned many times, you didn't need any skill to beat someone with lower res, it simply wasn't a fair fight (Ex: Mattey on monitor that didn't support full res 5-10 twdd average in about 20 duels elim rank around 150, Mattey next month at full res 16-10 twdd average #1 ranked elim player). That's why I'm entirely convinced the talent level wasn't any better then than it is now, the talent in the game just wasn't competing with you guys, it was competing in other zones. Sure most of the good guys are still near the top (who wouldn't be after 4 years of practice to improve, and I'm convinced the ones that are still at the top are only there because they've improved) but guys who were vets, left, then came back hardly seem to dominate vs the current players.

                      You can call it rust, or you can take the perspective that maybe they really weren't as good as they thought they were,
                      for some it's one case, for some it's the other. But just look at the twdd stats of the vets you named that are still playing, many are struggling to keep 1:1 w/l ratios in twdd, even while playing on vet squads. (Banzi and Blood are the truth though)
                      Originally posted by Blue Goat
                      bro you have no idea how right you are..
                      i played with 800x600 res on a ghetto 15 inch monitor back then, i still did pretty good..got decent elim ranks with my names..#15-25.. but never could reach that top 10 level because 2048 res was absolutely UNBEATABLE. The advantage that had over someone with 800 or 1000 res was INCREDIBLE.

                      when the res limit was put on.. alot of the top players lost a huge advantage over the rest of the competition, and then blamed their loss of skill on "i dont care anymore" "i dont try" "tw sucks now" etc..

                      res limit was the best change ever done to this zone..


                      It was funny to see how some of the top players in the old days came back down to earth once the res limit was implemented.. no...it was hilarious.
                      You see, i cant stress this enough - having 2048 res was such an incredible..insurmountable(sp?), unbeatable, humongous, bigger than my fuckin dick advantage over the players with 800x600 and 1000 which were the MAJORITY of tw players back then. You guys have NO idea unless you experienced it first hand. An elite player with 800 or 1000 vs an elite with 2048 would get his ass handed to him. Absolutely.

                      There is a reason why so few of the top players played on 800 res, because it was so difficult to compete with 2048 unless you were amazingly skilled.

                      I dont play the game now but i know the average skill level now is TONS better than it was back then..It has to be. People get better over time, not worse

                      It's sad that probably nobody will read this post and know the truth behind all the 'eliteness' back then.


                      Originally posted by Epinephrine's A History of Trench Wars
                      A fierce debate ensued. On the side of against were the players who did have the necessary computer equipment to go over the new maximum resolution. On the other side, were the players without. One of the infamous events of the debate included when FieryFire, a Smod in the zone asked for players against the restriction to vote against it by typing “100”, which went on for a full half hour and was logged for all to see.


                      Nothing says talent like literally being the only player named in the revolt against the res cap in a history book
                      Last edited by Claushouse; 01-14-2021, 03:27 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Man, i remember going from 1024x768 to 1280x1024, the difference was huge.

                        TWDTJ & TWDTB FINALIST 2019

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Claushouse Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely agree with you on all of those points. I remember playing on 800x600 res. It was actually the entire reason the rush style of play was first invented in the first place, because the only way to compete was to get close enough where high resolutions weren't a massive advantage. None of us could ever go back to that even today with the 1980 res cap without getting destroyed.

                          I think we are arguing two separate things actually. My point about Elusive and Siege was that the top players from those squads that are recognized still today as being legends were legends before and after the resolution/lag caps. You are correct about FF being nothing special, but looking beyond players like that, we can still see the top players on Siege and Elusive were great players for a long period of time beyond that early-zone stage. Some of them only came into their own during the later 'boom' years of 2003+.

                          As for others, a good example is Banzi, who is on this list. Banzi was a legend before I started in ~2001/2002 and a legend after that too. How many times did Banzi win TWL in the early years? . We see Banzi again a lot these days, maybe not as dominant or the same caliber of player relative to years past due to quitting and being away for so long, but there's no denying that Banzi is still a good WB even now. Banzi absolutely deserves to be on this list in my view. There are many players like this, and it's not that difficult to parse through because the list is only the Top 30 of all time, which really isn't many at all. That's like one squad of players. Now, if we were talking about the top 150 WBs of all time, that's when things get really messy and much more difficult to decide who gets in and who stays out using whatever reasoning we come up with.

                          As a side note, here's the first TWL standings:

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2021-01-14 121606.png Views:	0 Size:	13.2 KB ID:	1351114

                          If we look at this, Paladen was better than -F- for a time. An argument could have been made to say that Paladen was better than TW Elites for TWL season 1 too, and would have won if there was a playoff. Nobody remembers this though. -F- was around back then though, and anyone that claims -F- wasn't a great squad (albeit one that took time to come into their own obviously) isn't being honest. It's no different than how you mentioned Apok and others (yourself included) on Heavy being mid-tier and taking time to come into their own. We all had that experience. I'm sure everyone on -F- back then would say they went through the same thing.

                          As for Elusive and Siege, again, Banzi was a captain of Siege. Do you deny Banzi was/is an all-time great? Burnt won TWLD season 2 with Elusive under Static Burn. Is he not still an all-time great post-res/lag cap years? Sudden isn't. Epinephrine isn't. FF isn't, but there are definitely players that are that were around for both 'generations' of TWL like Burnt. Also, when you talk about Elusive, you have to mention they also won in Season 6, and a lot of those players moved on to make Syndicate, then moved on elsewhere. It's no different than saying Apok started with Heavy, which was a great squad based on the all-time good/great players that were on it (if not yet having come into it's own), which moved on to join Fierce and win a ton of titles, etc. The squad itself isn't what matters more than the players that made up it.

                          EDIT: This is a side rant, so ignore if you want: As for Racka's list specifically, I really like some of these guys and even have some like Weak on Facebook and other things outside of this game, but I would not include guys like Weak, Beam, Delectable, or Ruby as top 30 WBs of all time. Top 150, sure, but not top 30. The criteria might have to be more defined in that case. Weak was an amazing teamer and great role-player, and maybe that does deserve top WB of all time mentioning, but he was never the top WB on any squad, same with Beam and others.

                          Top 30 of All Time to me means a Michael Jordan, not a Dennis Rodman or even a Scottie Pippen, regardless of the fact that both are absolutely needed in a team game for a guy like Jordan to win. Pippen as the top guy when Jordan briefly retired couldn't get it done, and Rodman as the top guy would not have gotten it done. Both are Hall of Famers, but Hakeem Olajuwon is the guy I'd be taking in a draft if Jordan was gone, not Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman. I'd be taking Lebron over those two as well. I'd even go so far as to take Allen Iverson over both of those guys, because again, the best of all time list with only 30 names to me means you can only go with top players on their respective teams, not the complimentary guys.

                          People may complain about it, especially because so many squads just stack top players to remove all competition and steamroll everyone, but that's tough shit in my opinion. If people didn't want to be the top guy and go against top competition instead of joining it, they shouldn't be complaining that nobody thinks of them as Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant after they retire. You chose your path by stacking and being the 3rd or 5th or whatever best player on a top squad instead of being the top guy on your own, and to me, that means you are not a Top 30 of all time if we go based solely on TWL wins. Guys like Raspi, Mythril, LaSenza, etc who were in a league of their own in other aspects of the game beyond TWL prove why they belong on this list.

                          Like I said, a top 150 of all time adds room for the best roleplayers/teamers of all time to get recognized, but a top 30 means only the very best guys. If you see someone as a second best player or worse on a squad, I absolutely cannot consider them the 'best' ever without some other things backing it up, such as TWEL or TWDTD or best Elim player ever or whatever wins.

                          Just my $0.02
                          Last edited by Exalt; 01-14-2021, 03:42 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            i said banzi and blood were all-time greats. i just pointed out fieryfire was not.

                            Elusive and Siege won 4 of the first 5 TWLs, and Epinephrine wrote this and Crome quoted him and agreed:

                            Originally posted by Epinephrine
                            In the timeframe of season 4 TWL, -Final- won TWDL (or whatever they called the pyramid league of that season) in (I believe) both Javs and Wb. Yet again that was almost equally as important as TWL. The main reason being, was that there was yet again no playoffs. Siege played -Final- in round 1 of TWL which happened about 3 weeks after the end of Season 3 (imagine that!) and Siege won. In the days following that, the best active players of the newly broken up Elusive went and joined up with -Final- (poozzman, domi, sika, etc). It was then that -Final- became the undisputed powerhouse of the zone, and they ended up convincingly beating Siege in pyramid league as Siege got increasingly inactive. In fact by the end of the season Siege was not nearly as good, but because of the lack of playoffs, they won the season with 10-0, while -Final- was 9-1. The reason Siege could end with a perfect record while somewhat inactive was that TWL was a bit of a joke before season 5.
                            squads played both TWLD and TWDL at the same time. The first official season of the revamped TWDL was during TWL season 3.

                            Elusive, Siege, Scrotal's Horde, and -Final- all won TWDL.

                            Originally posted by Scrotal
                            there needs to be an asterisk next to [...] Siege's Season 3 TWL title that reads "note: Siege got thumped by Elusive in its last chance to take the number #1 spot from said Elusive in the same season for TWDL, and as a result didn't get to play in the TWDL Championship game, which was equally if not more popular than TWL at this point in time."
                            I'd say history is written by the victors, except you literally have the captains of Siege and Elusive repeatedly downplaying and contextualizing early TWLD.

                            Fieryfire and a bunch of parrots somehow managed to subvert the narrative anyway.
                            Last edited by Claushouse; 01-14-2021, 07:00 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Exalt View Post
                              Claushouse Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely agree with you on all of those points. I remember playing on 800x600 res. It was actually the entire reason the rush style of play was first invented in the first place, because the only way to compete was to get close enough where high resolutions weren't a massive advantage. None of us could ever go back to that even today with the 1980 res cap without getting destroyed.

                              I think we are arguing two separate things actually. My point about Elusive and Siege was that the top players from those squads that are recognized still today as being legends were legends before and after the resolution/lag caps. You are correct about FF being nothing special, but looking beyond players like that, we can still see the top players on Siege and Elusive were great players for a long period of time beyond that early-zone stage. Some of them only came into their own during the later 'boom' years of 2003+.

                              As for others, a good example is Banzi, who is on this list. Banzi was a legend before I started in ~2001/2002 and a legend after that too. How many times did Banzi win TWL in the early years? . We see Banzi again a lot these days, maybe not as dominant or the same caliber of player relative to years past due to quitting and being away for so long, but there's no denying that Banzi is still a good WB even now. Banzi absolutely deserves to be on this list in my view. There are many players like this, and it's not that difficult to parse through because the list is only the Top 30 of all time, which really isn't many at all. That's like one squad of players. Now, if we were talking about the top 150 WBs of all time, that's when things get really messy and much more difficult to decide who gets in and who stays out using whatever reasoning we come up with.

                              As a side note, here's the first TWL standings:

                              Click image for larger version Name:	Screenshot 2021-01-14 121606.png Views:	0 Size:	13.2 KB ID:	1351114

                              If we look at this, Paladen was better than -F- for a time. An argument could have been made to say that Paladen was better than TW Elites for TWL season 1 too, and would have won if there was a playoff. Nobody remembers this though. -F- was around back then though, and anyone that claims -F- wasn't a great squad (albeit one that took time to come into their own obviously) isn't being honest. It's no different than how you mentioned Apok and others (yourself included) on Heavy being mid-tier and taking time to come into their own. We all had that experience. I'm sure everyone on -F- back then would say they went through the same thing.

                              As for Elusive and Siege, again, Banzi was a captain of Siege. Do you deny Banzi was/is an all-time great? Burnt won TWLD season 2 with Elusive under Static Burn. Is he not still an all-time great post-res/lag cap years? Sudden isn't. Epinephrine isn't. FF isn't, but there are definitely players that are that were around for both 'generations' of TWL like Burnt. Also, when you talk about Elusive, you have to mention they also won in Season 6, and a lot of those players moved on to make Syndicate, then moved on elsewhere. It's no different than saying Apok started with Heavy, which was a great squad based on the all-time good/great players that were on it (if not yet having come into it's own), which moved on to join Fierce and win a ton of titles, etc. The squad itself isn't what matters more than the players that made up it.

                              EDIT: This is a side rant, so ignore if you want: As for Racka's list specifically, I really like some of these guys and even have some like Weak on Facebook and other things outside of this game, but I would not include guys like Weak, Beam, Delectable, or Ruby as top 30 WBs of all time. Top 150, sure, but not top 30. The criteria might have to be more defined in that case. Weak was an amazing teamer and great role-player, and maybe that does deserve top WB of all time mentioning, but he was never the top WB on any squad, same with Beam and others.

                              Top 30 of All Time to me means a Michael Jordan, not a Dennis Rodman or even a Scottie Pippen, regardless of the fact that both are absolutely needed in a team game for a guy like Jordan to win. Pippen as the top guy when Jordan briefly retired couldn't get it done, and Rodman as the top guy would not have gotten it done. Both are Hall of Famers, but Hakeem Olajuwon is the guy I'd be taking in a draft if Jordan was gone, not Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman. I'd be taking Lebron over those two as well. I'd even go so far as to take Allen Iverson over both of those guys, because again, the best of all time list with only 30 names to me means you can only go with top players on their respective teams, not the complimentary guys.

                              People may complain about it, especially because so many squads just stack top players to remove all competition and steamroll everyone, but that's tough shit in my opinion. If people didn't want to be the top guy and go against top competition instead of joining it, they shouldn't be complaining that nobody thinks of them as Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant after they retire. You chose your path by stacking and being the 3rd or 5th or whatever best player on a top squad instead of being the top guy on your own, and to me, that means you are not a Top 30 of all time if we go based solely on TWL wins. Guys like Raspi, Mythril, LaSenza, etc who were in a league of their own in other aspects of the game beyond TWL prove why they belong on this list.

                              Like I said, a top 150 of all time adds room for the best roleplayers/teamers of all time to get recognized, but a top 30 means only the very best guys. If you see someone as a second best player or worse on a squad, I absolutely cannot consider them the 'best' ever without some other things backing it up, such as TWEL or TWDTD or best Elim player ever or whatever wins.

                              Just my $0.02
                              Fuk ya 2 cents you pipsqueek

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Jones View Post
                                Man, i remember going from 1024x768 to 1280x1024, the difference was huge.
                                When was it changed 2 what it is today? I honestly can't remember what it was back in those 2010 days.

                                Who do i haf 2 talk 2 to get a dd arena with a 1280 reso cap, sprack gets bd2? Give me dd2 and let's try it out.
                                1:Engineers> am top spider on squad call me avatar eng
                                1:Cres> ye we only had to axe 10 ppl for it

                                Sweetie4life

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