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  • #31
    I think the level of stackness was set by evil before last twdt ended. Which in a sense forced the hand of other players.
    When their foundation of their warbird lineup consisted of 3 10 star warbirds in racka, lockdown and mythril. Am i expected to team up with 8 star players? Or am i going to form a team to compete against their team?

    I think it wasn't thought out enough imo. And tbh for future twls, I feel there should be a star limit of maybe 45 stars and players are able to leave freely until softlock is in place.
    Best warbird to ever enter trenchwars

    Comment


    • #32
      Imagine using handicaps, we could balance any game.

      Captains agree to a death or time handicap before game

      Wanna run three 10*s vs a bunch of 7-8*s? Fine, the 10s only get 7 deaths each.

      Just an idea


      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cape View Post
        Imagine using handicaps, we could balance any game.

        Captains agree to a death or time handicap before game

        Wanna run three 10*s vs a bunch of 7-8*s? Fine, the 10s only get 7 deaths each.

        Just an idea

        lol this would be fun to experiment with. You could run 4v5 as well, with four 10* players against five 8*

        Asia Minor> see you sunday fuckers
        Asia Minor> maybe not
        Asia Minor> i hope you guys lose
        bloodzombie> I hope your mom fucks you while you sleep
        bloodzombie> every time you have a wet dream, it's really your mom fucking you
        bloodzombie> remmeber that next time
        bloodzombie> seriously

        Comment


        • #34
          To continue with the NBA analogy...
          The greatest NBA teams of history have 2 superstars and then they role players. (Jordan/Pippen, Malone/Stockton, Curry/Thompson, Shaq/Kobe).
          The teams with even 3 superstars aren't nearly as legendary or well-respected. (Curry/Durant/Thompson LOL who even cared. What a lame team) (Kyrie/Harden/Durant - did they even last? No. Ego blows up)

          The current issue, for both jav and wbs leagues as far as I can tell, is that there are two teams with 4-5 superstars in each league.
          Aside from being a far cry from emulating the NBA greats, I don't even see how 4-5 giga-egos can coexist together like that for a 3-4 month season. (Like Kyrie/Harden/Durant)

          So the humble and modest petition would be to at least give up 1-2 superstars per league and spread the wealth.
          But yes everybody wants to win - no one wants to be the hero and go to a weaker team, yada yada yada. Those bitmap medal soooo tempting ehhh Exalt? ;-)

          If each team gave up two superstars per league, then that means 2 more teams could each have 2 superstars per league as well, which then gives us a total of 5 reasonable competitive teams which would be kind of sick. Then I for one would look forward to TWL every week and probably even want to watch some of the matches on YouTube if they're recorded. We still need to help out that 6th team though, so if you all actually have 3 players with balls who care to benefit the whole zone (rather than sacrifice the zone for another bitmap medal) would be stellar and I'm sure you would be karmically rewarded in seen and unseen ways for such a selfless act.

          Can we just be a bit more like the NBA?
          (Draft league is pretty close to this with the star limit max allowing 2 superstars to play on one team, but TWL could allow for higher quality role players than draft league does. Something like two 9.5-10s, one ~8.5-9, and two 7.5-8.5 would be sick.)

          Don't we all secretly wish we were professional athletes anyway? Or we like to think we are competing on sort of high level?
          Sorry to say but currently TWL is not some sort of high level thing. High level means the betting line is close. As is, most games scheduled to happen in the league are a wash and no one would even take a bet on them.
          Props to draft league though - definitely could bet there. Good stuff.

          p.s. I love you all you guys/girls/they/them's. Not ragging on anyone. We're all doing the best we can, and if we knew better we would do better. So, the hope is maybe the above potential parallels to the NBA offer some inspiration for some pilots to better themselves and better the zone, or if it simply provides you with inspiration to absolutely destroy me whenever you vs me that's cool too. I welcome the challenge!

          Who wants to be legendary?

          love, bike

          Comment


          • #35
            I remember the days when people tried to improve at the game... take down the 'top' players and become said top player. now it's people writing novels on forums trying to force parity as if they have less fingers than the opposition. How about proving that star rating doesn't necessarily equate to skill?

            Look at Ram Ranch, they've been putting in work and just beat us in LB this weekend when they have fewer 'superstars' on paper (beloved star count).

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by zidane View Post
              I remember the days when people tried to improve at the game... take down the 'top' players and become said top player. now it's people writing novels on forums trying to force parity as if they have less fingers than the opposition. How about proving that star rating doesn't necessarily equate to skill?

              Look at Ram Ranch, they've been putting in work and just beat us in LB this weekend when they have fewer 'superstars' on paper (beloved star count).
              Why dismiss and discourage participant feedback, regardless of the way its formatted?

              Some of it can be helpful towards the evolution and growth of the leagues.

              I remember the days when people could compete & give feedback (RANTS), despite the "back in my day" commentary (today, and 15+ years ago).


              Edit(s): one of saiyans posts mentioned having TWL be a tournament instead of season.

              A 2-3 weekend TWL season where people can team with whoever they want without restriction sounds like a population/activity booster after, as opposed to the historically negative consequences in activity (TWL typically 8-14 weeks in length).

              That transition seems to be effective to me, and opens the door to a TWL/TWDT hybrid league.
              Last edited by Riverside; 09-21-2022, 03:37 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                I don't really like the wording Bike gave where he talks about squads "giving up" players to "spread the wealth". People have to want to do it themselves. If they don't actually want it, then it's entirely pointless anyway. I just think it would be a huge positive to the zone if more top players tried it for once, rather than just getting defensive or something when stacking is brought up as an obvious issue.

                I also know this is all easier said than done in reality. Best (and some others) were on Rocket long ago trying to help everyone get better, and he eventually quit after losing his mind due to the lack of brain cells of stubborn teammates.. It can honestly be rage-inducing playing with some people whose egos far outweighs their actual skill or game sense to a point where they will never try to improve or do what it takes to win, because they think they know better. I don't really have an answer to that, but TWDT has shown that there are lower * players out there who will listen and are willing to learn. Sometimes that requires learning and playing with top players to see what is possible, since they won't know otherwise.

                I think MMR is a good step in making even teams (eventually), but it's not going to improve a lot of players simply because nobody has time or incentive to teach someone to do better for just one round of play. That's where squads and things shine. I also think TWL would be pretty sick to see if Best/Mythril/Racka/Vys/Saiyan/etc all led their own teams of lower *s against one another. Yes, that's a lot like TWDT, but there's no draft involved so people can play with who they want and fit best with and they'd be real squads so players would actually invest real time into it.

                Maybe its a pipe-dream, but I know the game would be much healthier for it. 10 TWDT season a year isn't going to work forever and TWL still matters for many.

                Originally posted by zidane View Post
                I remember the days when people tried to improve at the game... take down the 'top' players and become said top player. now it's people writing novels on forums trying to force parity as if they have less fingers than the opposition. How about proving that star rating doesn't necessarily equate to skill?

                Look at Ram Ranch, they've been putting in work and just beat us in LB this weekend when they have fewer 'superstars' on paper (beloved star count).
                Yes, many remember those days. It's also not 2001 and the game's lifespan isn't infinite. People don't have 10 years to learn together. I guess they could wait out the competition to finally slip and retire like most of this game did, but then all you'll have is Pawner calling himself a 10* because he took down 80 year old Racka.
                RaCka> imagine standing out as a retard on subspace
                RaCka> mad impressive

                Comment


                • #38
                  TWL is in its 25th season right now for a reason. There's obviously pros and cons to TWL but at this stage in the game leagues like TWDT benefit the zone more so than TWL. From a player perspective I'm not opposed to playing any league that is suggested that makes sense. I spoke to Steadman for a while last night about the future of TW leagues.. I think the main hurdle would be to get TWL caliber players to buy into leagues they view as 'lesser than' compared to TWL.

                  I do just want to say stacking has always been a thing in regards to TWL.. I don't remember players from season 1 through season 20 or so ever complaining about the difference in skill levels between two squads. If you look historically there's always been like 3 top teams per division with a couple squads that could upset followed by filler squads. That being said I realize the game is in a different place now compared to 2008 for example but that doesn't change the fact that there were still roughly 3 warbird squads that could've won TWLD that season.

                  I'm not opposed to some sort of TWDT/TWL hybrid league moving forward I'm just not sure how many TWL caliber players would be fine with potentially replacing TWL altogether.
                  7:Amnesti <TW>> racka is nestled in Candlekeep. hes nestled atop the cliffs that rise from the sword-coast.

                  Amnesti> but i guess i havent tried so much yet, im only 19. when im 20+ i will on purpose make myself look as good as i can, and go to places where girls are

                  1:Sika> "ezor" is #1

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by zidane View Post
                    I remember the days when people tried to improve at the game... take down the 'top' players and become said top player. now it's people writing novels on forums trying to force parity as if they have less fingers than the opposition. How about proving that star rating doesn't necessarily equate to skill?

                    Look at Ram Ranch, they've been putting in work and just beat us in LB this weekend when they have fewer 'superstars' on paper (beloved star count).
                    I won't be surprised if/when Divine beats everyone in LD because we have a modest two superstar lineup with quality role players and good, wholesome vibes. And yea, Rocket gave us a scare when most would probably agree they don't have any superstars, so anything could happen.

                    Maybe this whole thing is like honey, and one doesn't know truly honey until one has tasted it - so I simply don't know what it's like playing with five superstars, and perhaps if I knew it, I would never leave it.

                    I can say though, the awesome feeling that awaits Divine fam for beating Rapid / Evil is far greater than the feeling that awaits Rapid / Evil if they beat Divine lolz. It's like...BRO hahahahaa Evil / Rapid pretty much have nothing to gain and everything to lose.
                    Hence, limiting to 2 superstars will allow many to save face and increase joy for all.
                    It is really a win/win scenario. Everybody wins.

                    Who loses in a scenario with 6 evenly balanced teams?
                    6 people switching teams would do wonders for league enhancements.

                    Here's an estimate of superstar needs (assuming everyone on twd roster shows):
                    Ram needs 2 wbs and 2 javs to be highly competitive.
                    Flapperz needs 1-2 wb.
                    Rocket needs 3 javs, 1-2 wb.
                    in total 4-5 wb needs, and 5 jav needs.

                    Between Evil and Rapid, are there 4-5 wbs and 5 superstar javs available, leaving each team with 2-3 superstars still?

                    For purposes of this, let's count beam as superstar wb, giving Evil 6 wbs. Javs I really don't know about, but pretty sure there are 2-3 to spare there.
                    Let's say Rapid has 4 superstar wbs. That would also give them 2 to spare, so easily the 4-5 wb quota is met. Javs, again I know little, but pretty sure they could spare at least 2-3.

                    Of course, 2-leaguers being the heroes makes everything easier.
                    For example,
                    Best and Vys to Ram,
                    Mythril, Lockdown, and Rough to Rocket
                    beam to Flapperz
                    and suddenly we have a vastly more exciting league.

                    Six players move around to greatly enhance the league experience for everyone.

                    It is within our reach...
                    the land of milk and honey...
                    overflowing with fun, laughter, and good vibes...
                    if only a few brave souls arise to a higher calling.

                    For real for real, who wants to witness these 50-28 or 50-20 bloodbaths the entire season?
                    Yes I agree let's just tell everyone to get better.
                    Fun fact though bro check your usage. How many hours is it?
                    Cool. Give me that many hours in your ship and then maybe I'll be close to your level. Until then be patient.
                    Also, you think people get better without coaches and mentors?
                    Who is there on Ram/Flapperz/Rocket to mentor/coach in WB?
                    Who is there on Ram/Rocket/Divine to mentor/coach in javs? (Okkk we got big Ardour helping out but you get the point)

                    I'm pretty sure people don't get better by getting annihilated. Could be wrong though.

                    lol yo p.p.s. Does anyone remember RaCka's initial TWL post where he said something like "Try to make the teams even," and then he edited it and deleted that part. lololol yo at least the heart is there. It is hard to stand by the heart though. Have faith, brother. Be strong.

                    Love to all, harm to none, peace & prosperity.
                    Gratitude raining in abundance


                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bike View Post

                      lol yo p.p.s. Does anyone remember RaCka's initial TWL post where he said something like "Try to make the teams even," and then he edited it and deleted that part. lololol yo at least the heart is there. It is hard to stand by the heart though. Have faith, brother. Be strong.
                      For somebody that has played since 2000 you're taking a crazy victim approach to this discussion.. We've all played this game since like the early 2000's at this point.. Should I not want to play with good players against good players? Like I said in my previous post I'm open to playing any type of league that comes but the entitlement in your post is pretty sad to see

                      My first few seasons of TWL were played on Simulate and Quicksand with a bunch of unknown warbirds at the time who grinded and got better.. It's easier to take your stand point when you quit for 10 years and then come back expecting people to build lines around you. I don't remember you saying any of this stuff when you had Vys or Iron on Divine with you.
                      7:Amnesti <TW>> racka is nestled in Candlekeep. hes nestled atop the cliffs that rise from the sword-coast.

                      Amnesti> but i guess i havent tried so much yet, im only 19. when im 20+ i will on purpose make myself look as good as i can, and go to places where girls are

                      1:Sika> "ezor" is #1

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Proposed time period between leagues: 2-4 weeks
                        Proposed number of unpaid League Operators: 2-4x more individuals than we have rn

                        League 1: TWL (Tourny) (3 weeks)

                        Total: 1 month

                        League 2: TWDT (10 weeks)

                        Total: 4 months

                        League 3: TWL / TWDT Hybrid (6 weeks)

                        Total: 6 months

                        ------

                        The remaining 6 months of a year provides an opportunity to repeat the 3 leagues, or the eventual development of a consistently used fourth league.

                        Currently, there are 2 (TWL & TWDT).

                        Basing Cup has had success with 1 out of 3 leagues (imo). I can't comment on TSL as I haven't seen or participated in games.

                        ----

                        Other league options to consider, especially to coordinate at/around the same time as one of the 3-4 leagues.

                        Amateur (Beer) League (ABL):
                        • Can separate wb, jav and basing leagues (ie Basing Cup), or keep them combined
                        • During a game, a maximum of 2 players (warbird/jav), 3 players (basing) rated between 8.5*-10*
                        • maximum 5 players on roster rated between 8.5*-10*
                        • Can be tried with a star cap (36-39* wb/jav & 10-20% lower than what basing is now)
                        • Can be tried without a star cap
                        MMR League (MMRL):

                        Objective: increase mmr usage & provide scheduled & announced competitive games during non-peak hours
                        • Tuesday & Friday 9pm-10:30pm EST (North American player-friendly)
                        • Saturday 1pm (targetting players outside of East/West coast time zone)
                        • In order to participate in MMRL, players must have a minimum of 25 games played in ?go mmr. Games can be played outside of mmr league times with ?help. Games minimum played in order to participate weekly could increase through the season (25 to 35 to 50 by end season)
                        • Could be similar to TSL in terms of league structure & objectives for participating players
                        Last edited by Riverside; 09-21-2022, 06:44 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Exalt View Post
                          Look at Cape's weird ass comment as an example. What normal, well-adjusted person talks like that?
                          Let me know when the top players decide to carry some scrubs into TWL.
                          You are forgetting the true nature of this game.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RaCka View Post

                            For somebody that has played since 2000 you're taking a crazy victim approach to this discussion.. We've all played this game since like the early 2000's at this point.. Should I not want to play with good players against good players? Like I said in my previous post I'm open to playing any type of league that comes but the entitlement in your post is pretty sad to see

                            My first few seasons of TWL were played on Simulate and Quicksand with a bunch of unknown warbirds at the time who grinded and got better.. It's easier to take your stand point when you quit for 10 years and then come back expecting people to build lines around you. I don't remember you saying any of this stuff when you had Vys or Iron on Divine with you.
                            If you want an all-star game, you can have one. No one will deny you that. I think that'd be sweet. But for a 3-4 month league to have two all-star teams is a bit bizarre, don't you think?
                            From a wb perspective, I think Divine could beat anyone (reasonable odds), and in javs Flapperz could beat anyone (reasonable odds), aside from that though the odds in the other games are like 95/5 or something. Those type of odds don't show up in NBA/NFL/NHL etc because no teams are that bizarrely stacked/skewed.

                            I won't mention names, but I've spoken with multiple people (3-4 come to mind) who are in the 9-10* range who have talked about not playing because the skew is dumb and that the season looks bad or things of that nature (at least 2 of these people are not playing the league for this reason). Competitive teams inspire more people to play is my hunch.

                            My intention behind this discussion is to facilitate an increase in the amount of fun had by as many people that play this game as possible and to facilitate a more wholesome, balanced, league experience.

                            What is the intention behind stacking all-star teams?
                            AHHHH one more bitmap medal Plzzzzzz I'll have more than anyone else!!!!!
                            Bro...

                            Aren't all-star lines for old school squad duels in private arenas and things of that nature or spontaneous weeknight dds?

                            From what I've witnessed, the inspiration behind these all-star teams is largely a culmination of a bunch of personal vendettas and everyone calling everyone else a 'snake' or whatever is the hot lingo these days. It is like "AHHHH I hate these kids talking trash about me I must assemble a team to destroy them!!!" Is that pretty much it?

                            But okay okay maybe I'm delusional thinking anyone wants the leagues on here to remotely have any inkling of resemblance to the NBA and everyone would rather feel like a hardcore gamer nerd instead. I'm telling you though, it is nice to not feel like a nerd when you stop playing on stacked teams. Try it out. I dare you. Feels good man. Being mercenary and sacrificing people left and right to make better and better teams while making other team's chances less and less is lame (to me).

                            "BRoo did you not hear what I just said I was on Quicksand for like 10 years." Yes but were you invited to Elusive and turned it down? We were all on noob squads at some point I imagine.

                            ...

                            I wonder - do Rapid and Evil still play TWL if all the other squads drop out?
                            It is a funny sort of collective peer pressure to compete but when you push things too far it collapses (like these player sitting out of competition I've mentioned would be the start of it)
                            People are free to compete or not compete...
                            what happens if everyone chooses not to compete?
                            Do you re-consider your teams then?
                            Are you all annoyed that anyone is even choosing to compete because of how much better your team appears to be than everyone, or are you happy there are 40* lines to verse your 49-50* lines? Genuinely curious.

                            What does an ideal TWL look like to you?
                            As many 10s together as possible, then as many 9s as possible? and as many 8s as possible? That gets two 10* squads, one 9* squad, maybe 2-3 8* squads...I guess that is kind of where we're at? That doesn't sound terrible on paper. but 5 squads of 10, 10, 9, 8, 8 sounds a lot more fun.

                            We call it the heart of the sandwich league. TWL is one side of the bread that has gone way too moldy, TWDT is that other side of the bread that is actually pretty good, but the best part is the heart of the sandwich in between the two pieces of bread. That's the good stuff.

                            ...

                            Anyway fam, love you guys, if you spent time reading this, I will leave you with this easter egg :

                            Thank you.
                            Love,
                            bike

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bike View Post

                              "BRoo did you not hear what I just said I was on Quicksand for like 10 years." Yes but were you invited to Elusive and turned it down? We were all on noob squads at some point I imagine.
                              I turned down a handful of 'elite' squad invites when I was on Quicksand and we eventually made it to the TWLD finals after multiple seasons together
                              7:Amnesti <TW>> racka is nestled in Candlekeep. hes nestled atop the cliffs that rise from the sword-coast.

                              Amnesti> but i guess i havent tried so much yet, im only 19. when im 20+ i will on purpose make myself look as good as i can, and go to places where girls are

                              1:Sika> "ezor" is #1

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                There is an NBA format, it's called TWDT, and it has 8-10 teams with 1-2 superstars per team. They run it 2-3x a year.

                                TWL is, and always has been, the Premier League. Only Chelsea, Manchester City and Liverpool can win. It's run 1x per year. Stop trying to turn TWL into TWDT when the game is dominated by draft.

                                There are a lot of players who are good at preying on low and mid-tier guys in TWDT-D, then struggle and flop against full TWLD superstar lines. There are players like Ro who are bonafide superstars in TWDT-D then in TWLD crunch time against top players fall apart. TWL weeds those ppl out. You should have to beat stacked squads to win.

                                TWLD and TWLJ had 3-4 contenders last season, and TWLB had 4-5. It's unfortunate TWLD is down to 2 and TWLJ to 3, but there was enough talent for an extra team in each and people did a terrible job putting squads together (combined with Ease, Turban, Trasher, Spartan, Creature, a2m, etc. not returning), but many TWL seasons have had 2-3 contenders... it's not great, but it's par for the course (TWLB remains strong with 4 contenders, which is historically above average.)

                                TWL has issues from a design standpoint, as does the Premier League, but it has pros and cons, the pros being it pits superstar teams against each other in the semis/finals and half the difficulty is earning a starting spot on those contenders, or building up your own core over several years like many of us have in the past, and like Ram Ranch is doing now.


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