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  • Base map and cramming

    I was watching Mambo vs. TeKs today. The game was pure cram. Mambo had the base for 13 minutes straight. Only variation was couple of terr kills while cramming. I'm not saying here TeKs should've beaten us, but they at least deserved a chance. In the beginning, they had lots of potential situations for terr kill, but they lost the game after couple of minutes when they got thrown out of base.

    This is not a new thing. It has annoyed me for a long time. (There's other things that should be changed too, like shark shraps, but this is more importat so I'll start with this.) Unfortunatelly I've been lazy and also hopeful staff would realize this is just stupid. Well, I did manage to get a map change to base2 for a short period of time, but my discussion about it with Pure_Luck went something like this: "Pure_Luck> well, I asked my squadmates what they thought about this, and those who bothered to answer didn't dare argue with me, so future for any changes looks dim" (Ok, he actually just said "they didn't like it too much", but the point is still the same.)

    In ?go base this isn't such a big problem, but in leagues, basically all the sharks are good enough to hold cram for long periods of time. There's been so many games that have been basically two or three crams. I can't say for sure, but I think vast majority of the games have had at least one cram that could be described "very long". If there's two squads of equal strength, it's very possible that a stray shark shrap decides whole game. Terr gets strayed, team gets thrown out of base, and they get crammed for the last 5 minutes. I've seen so many games in which neither team can break the other's cram effectively, even though in fr they're equally matched. There's also been games where a team is getting owned in fr, but manages to get couple of terr kills and then holds cram and finishes with 15:00-4:56. Do you think the ability to cram is that much more important than ability to fight fr battles? Most squads can get a terr kill once in a while against any squad, but if they get crammed, no chance and the whole game is boring. I'm not trying to say worse squads should beat better squads, exactly the other way around. With much shorter crams, lucky terr deaths mean less and the importance of skill grows. The games become much more interesting, and equally matches squads can decide the game in a fair way, and not in a manner where one of the teams constantly has the unfair advantage of cram.

    I'm not talking about all games. Lots of games are pretty good with little cramming, but so many games are like 4 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 6 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 3 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 6 minute cram, terr flies in, gets killed, 4 minute cram, end. Who honestly thinks cramming is what basing is about?! I don't. Is there someone who actually likes cramming? Because if my guess is right, and most people don't, why the fuck hasn't anything been done to this thing?!

    So what's my suggestion? The most obvious and easiest one: change the map. Here's my initial quick sketch:


    As you see, the point is to remove a place for terr to sit so people get repped out of cram more effectively. It might have some problems and it might need some testing and tweaking, but my idea was to try to affect fr battles as little as possible. (Since people are so afraid of changes.) Possible problem with the old base2 map, where the terr sitting blocks were removed, so underflag was very open and there weren't too many places for hiding save for the suicidal dead ends. Under is a bit more open in this version too, but everything else is unchanged. (Except cram of course.) It gives a new safe place for sitting on the side of the flag thing, but that's not a big thing and might prove to be an interesting new strategic twist.

    Again, I'm not saying that my suggestion is the best there is, it's just a suggestion, my main point here is that SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.
    Last edited by Kuukunen; 11-21-2007, 12:23 PM.

  • #2
    I do, in a way, agree with you.

    However, cramming promotes squads to use different lineups. Recruit more skilled people, to not just for flagroom fights, but for breaking crams etc as well.

    Even if something is changed, people develop their skills and gaming styles, which will eventually end up to a similar situation as it is now. Maybe not cram, but another "problem". For the problem to come up, people will have to get used to the new style of the entrance, which on the other hand would make squads too evenly matched since neither of the 2 matching squads know what the best thing to do is yet.

    As far as I know, basing map hasn't been changed in quite a while. As it is, it does work out rather well. The more basing squads - if they're not messing around - do win with skill and team play since they've been playing more. Basing, just like everything else in TW will eventually stick to one development "age". Currently in basing it's cramming, since it's the best way to go. There's always someone who'll be unhappy with things.

    You have multiple cram breakable ships usable in basing. Use them. Get a player into your squad that's good enough. Team up to get in. If you can't, you need more practice. Even the best sharks screw up. Cram won't last forever if the attacking team isn't horrible and doesn't know at all what to do.

    Not saying any squads suck, just generalizing and giving tips. It's what the game is about. Figure out best possible solutions to winning a game and practice your skills to match those solutions.
    3:Wax> ard and i snapchat all the time
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    • #3
      Fuck the cram.
      Originally posted by Tone
      It is now time for the energy shift of the 7th root race to manifest on the 3D physical plane and uplift us back to 5D.
      Originally posted by the_paul
      Gargle battery acid fuckface
      Originally posted by Material Girl
      I tried downloading a soundcard

      Comment


      • #4
        i dunno

        i'm NOT A SHARK

        but i've sharked alot to know that it's a really important ship.

        cram is an extension of this, yes if 2 sharks are teaming well its hard to break them.


        but i've sharked in many teams with another good shark but weak spids and it's impossible to hold cram.

        all in all yes cram might look boring, yes in 2 evenly matched squads it can be a decider , but sharking isn't a great job and most would rather spid etc ... it takes skill from the sharks to cram well and adds to a team element. sharks are a pretty selfless ship.


        i'd still be in favour of a change to ships 4&6 to make them more basable. even leaving the weasel out of twd and changing 4 to a ship challenging the javelin and l2 bombs with shrap and a rep might add something to twbd
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sertifi. View Post
          I do, in a way, agree with you.

          However, cramming promotes squads to use different lineups. Recruit more skilled people, to not just for flagroom fights, but for breaking crams etc as well.

          Even if something is changed, people develop their skills and gaming styles, which will eventually end up to a similar situation as it is now. Maybe not cram, but another "problem". For the problem to come up, people will have to get used to the new style of the entrance, which on the other hand would make squads too evenly matched since neither of the 2 matching squads know what the best thing to do is yet.

          As far as I know, basing map hasn't been changed in quite a while. As it is, it does work out rather well. The more basing squads - if they're not messing around - do win with skill and team play since they've been playing more. Basing, just like everything else in TW will eventually stick to one development "age". Currently in basing it's cramming, since it's the best way to go. There's always someone who'll be unhappy with things.

          You have multiple cram breakable ships usable in basing. Use them. Get a player into your squad that's good enough. Team up to get in. If you can't, you need more practice. Even the best sharks screw up. Cram won't last forever if the attacking team isn't horrible and doesn't know at all what to do.

          Not saying any squads suck, just generalizing and giving tips. It's what the game is about. Figure out best possible solutions to winning a game and practice your skills to match those solutions.
          forgat how new you are

          actually cram promotes 5 spids lineups since spiders shooting down is what cram is

          addding a couple new holes to fr entrance area would make cramming against a jav close to impossible and would promote the use of specials in twlb
          Originally posted by Diakka
          Lets stop being lil bitches

          Comment


          • #6
            Here's a suggestion: learn to push effectively with 5 spiders or get a good jav or do whatever you think would work. You do that and you'll be able to break any cram. If you can't play a certain part of the game anywhere near the level of the other squad you'll lose most every time. This holds true for FR fights, crams, or any other phase of battle which might be created by changing the map.

            If we were to change the map today, a new strategy would eventually be worked out to be the most effective (I'd say a few months tops), and there will be squads who do much better at it than others, and will beat squads not so much weaker than they are overall by a large margin at times. And after a while of this people will bitch again about it being "boring" or some bullshit like that and would want to change the map yet again.

            The game is only boring to spectators, and players on winning teams on incredibly lopsided matches (such as literal 15:00-00:00 games). And ya know what I think? Fuck the spectators, this isn't about them. League matches are not around to entertain nerds on the internet who are just sitting on their ass with nothing better to do, its for nerds to beat up each other figuratively in an online game to see who is better. If you REALLY want a game to be entertaining, why not get rid of the basing walls entirely and just leave a couple of bars hanging in the vicinity of flag? That kind of game will constantly change hands.
            LUE 402 >>> j00
            Ha ha HA. Not to scale.

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            • #7
              fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

              Honestly, I have zero interest in this league now because of the cram and I know I'm not alone. Get rid of it.
              Originally posted by Tone
              It is now time for the energy shift of the 7th root race to manifest on the 3D physical plane and uplift us back to 5D.
              Originally posted by the_paul
              Gargle battery acid fuckface
              Originally posted by Material Girl
              I tried downloading a soundcard

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PH View Post
                fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

                Honestly, I have zero interest in this league now because of the cram and I know I'm not alone. Get rid of it.
                Nah.
                LUE 402 >>> j00
                Ha ha HA. Not to scale.

                Comment


                • #9
                  fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
                  Originally posted by Tone
                  It is now time for the energy shift of the 7th root race to manifest on the 3D physical plane and uplift us back to 5D.
                  Originally posted by the_paul
                  Gargle battery acid fuckface
                  Originally posted by Material Girl
                  I tried downloading a soundcard

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    glad i dont base, basing sucks, its boring and ruining the game by basicly promoting purepub

                    new players hate basing too, thats why they dont stick to this game

                    time to make purewb pub $$$

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am all for changing the cram.

                      Think about it: as long as your spiders are smart enough to balance, to dodge corner camps and your sharks can time, chances are youll hold a long ass cram. And none of those components require that much skill really. Furthermore, cram pretty much keeps terriers doing nothing half the game.

                      Specials arent promoted at all with crams. In league play there are only handful of javs that can make a difference in the yellow ship. But think about it: necromotic, domi, da1andonly have been playing this game for a while now and they are all very talented. Personally, I am a big fan of diso's basing with specials. But even if they have really successful season, heck even if they win, I really doubt many squads would start using 2 specials because diso is an old squad with players who played with each other for a long time. Would take a while to make that sort of lineup effective. 5 spider cram will still dominate.

                      The way I picture best basers are not the ones who are best at a map on which 99% of the strats have been tried already. Think about it: if you change a map each season youll let squads think up new tactics and how to counter them before matches. Heck, each game in a season might be completely different than the other one. It won't be just people who practiced to play the same way for 5000 hrs. What I am saying here, is that IMO there should not be a map that has to last as tw's main base/pub map for so long as this one did.

                      What I think is really needed is some map designer to actually step up and try to come up with an alternate basing map for 8v8 players. It's easier to reject an idea with nothing about it.

                      Also, I think most people will flame me about this, but: I noticed that 7v7 6v6 cram is much much easier to break for obvious reasons. The 6s cram allows a terr to be able to fly in half the time with all spids in there burst and basically kill the whole thing. (as done numerously by acidbomber <3) So maybe if leagues are made 6s, just think about it. Most squads almost never have enough for 8s and they frown upon playing anything less than 7s. So if 6s was the number of basers in leagues that would mean: more squads, more twbd games, heck i wouldnt be surprised if some squads would choose to only have 1 shark + 1 special (probably wb) and line for that mid dominance.

                      Also, think of several other possibilities: 2 reps for sharks on spawn with unlimited reps stored capacity, a bit shorter spawn time and maybe some other tweaks. Longer spawn time? 1 shark max with 4-5 reps? Automatic mine on attach? Sharks possessing a jav bomb? (i am just kidding here now)

                      Sigh, nothing will happen because everyone is scared of change so I guess I am going to just have to look forward towards twsdx
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Has anyone considered a randomly changing map where every game is different? This would promote improvisation on a squadron's part...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by midoent
                          Sigh, nothing will happen because everyone is scared of change
                          Sad, but true. Those suggestions would probably make the game more interesting, but with this amount of resistance even against every obvious change, it's very unlikely.
                          Originally posted by Eeks View Post
                          actually cram promotes 5 spids lineups since spiders shooting down is what cram is
                          Agreed. That's been one of my points too. For a jav to break a good cram effectively he needs lag. Does anyone think it's a good thing the people without lag are useless in jav? And the main reason for not using a lanc or wb is because they basically suck at attacking and defending cram. Sure, wb might get rep ignores and mess up enemy's shark timing, but good sharks know to avoid that and it's not easy to get any kind of shot at the sharks because the spids are getting overpowered so there's usually a constant bullet rain. Then few people will whine how underrated lanc is and it can break cram, so sure, some people might disagree with me on this, but I haven't seen any proof contradicting it.
                          Originally posted by Tsumetai
                          Here's a suggestion: learn to push effectively with 5 spiders or get a good jav or do whatever you think would work. You do that and you'll be able to break any cram. If you can't play a certain part of the game anywhere near the level of the other squad you'll lose most every time. This holds true for FR fights, crams, or any other phase of battle which might be created by changing the map.
                          Well, doh? Do you think the squads don't try to figure out how to break cram? Because your suggestion assumes squads are now presented with a brand new idea: "Hey! Learn how to break cram!" "Zomg! Why didn't we think of it ourselves! We've been so stupid!" Before, I too was thinking that with time, people might learn how to break cram better, but so far no good. If they have, people have learned to cram better too, which is just natural.

                          The thing is, it's a lot easier to defend cram than to break it. And the squad's ability cram is emphasized to the level of ridiculousness. Having a 15 minute cram against a squad that's close to your team's skill level is very possible. Beating them in every single fr battle during 15 minutes of constant fr battles isn't.
                          Originally posted by Tsumetai
                          If we were to change the map today, a new strategy would eventually be worked out to be the most effective (I'd say a few months tops), and there will be squads who do much better at it than others, and will beat squads not so much weaker than they are overall by a large margin at times. And after a while of this people will bitch again about it being "boring" or some bullshit like that and would want to change the map yet again.
                          If the new strategy would be as biased as cram currently is, we'd have to change the map again, but most likely it wouldn't. Did you even play when lining was the thing? Lining wasn't this unfair. Some squads were better at it than others, and it made a difference, but it was broken a lot easier, so the whole game wasn't focused on it. It was just a part of the game, not the main thing, like cram is. I have no idea how you think you can claim that there has to be a defence strategy that will be as one-sided as cram currently is.

                          People saying: "Hey! Just learn to break it! It's part of the game and both teams have equal chances so best should win anyways." aren't really thinking it through. How about this... We make a map with only one long tube leading to fr, 2 blocks wide. Then ban the sharks. So the game would be decided after the first terr kill, since it would be impossible to get in with seven spids timing their shots and protecting each others from the one stray bullet that might end up flying to the end. Hey, it would be equal for both teams right?
                          Originally posted by Tsumetai
                          The game is only boring to spectators, and players on winning teams on incredibly lopsided matches (such as literal 15:00-00:00 games). And ya know what I think? Fuck the spectators, this isn't about them. League matches are not around to entertain nerds on the internet who are just sitting on their ass with nothing better to do, its for nerds to beat up each other figuratively in an online game to see who is better. If you REALLY want a game to be entertaining, why not get rid of the basing walls entirely and just leave a couple of bars hanging in the vicinity of flag? That kind of game will constantly change hands.
                          This isn't about the spectators. Cram is boring for everyone. And it's not even mostly about how boring it is, but how much it's overemphasized and how much it makes luck a factor. Get one lucky terr kill and that's automatically loads of flag time.

                          For the sake of an example, let's make a simplified model of this. Let's assume the cram always takes the same amount of time to break. So in fr battles, the attacking team has a chance to kill the terr and get the flagroom. The longer the cram, the less there are chances. This was my point in the "long tube"-example. With it, there's only one chance. So if a squad sucks, and wins fr battles 30% of the time, but can hold the cram, they still win 30% of the games even though they were clearly much worse. If the winning team has to win two fr battles (because the cram takes so long to break) that same squad will only win 21.6% of the games. With three fr battles, the number is 16.3% and with more fr battles the number just goes down. If you really want and can't do math, I can explain how I got those numbers.

                          The point is, if a squad sucks that much, they shouldn't win almost any of the games. I'm not saying we should try to remove luck factor altogether, that would be boring too. Not that it's even possible, and squads are always going to have different line up, people having a bad day etc etc... but that's besides the point.

                          The point is:
                          Originally posted by PH
                          fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

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                          • #14
                            I'm with ph and kuukunen on this one.
                            Erathia> IF YOU SPIDERS CONTINUE CAMPING I WILL BAN YOU AND CALL IT RACISM

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                            • #15
                              Cram basing is boring. It's extremely tedious to watch and not much better to play. The flagroom is where nearly all the "fun" of basing occurs, so open the fucking flagroom. The base game has atrophied as a direct result of the rise of cram basing. And the fault isn't the players' for seeking, finding, and applying the best solution to the current set of givens.

                              Change the map to something with more than one entrance. This is really, really obvious.
                              Originally posted by Ward
                              OK.. ur retarded case closed

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