Worth a Shot?

[Witness]

well if you took your own advice and read what i said

I did read what you said.....and this post has nothing todo with the twla. I'm all for twla if it gets done right. This is post is about getting more players playing, and in order to do that i came up with a change to the ranking system, and you go off on a tangent, rather then reading, so i shoved right back :P

"This is nothing more than the TWL club trying to cover their own ass to ensure being invited back, while at the same time trying to keep newer squads from joining this "prestigious" league. Shut up and earn your spot,"




but this is the real issue i was trying to change. !! this right here!! in bold!
"I'm not saying that you're wrong for wanting to try a jd, i'm saying that if you're in a squad that stands to lose a lot of points by fielding you as a player, maybe 1) you shouldn't play for them [/B]or 2) they don't deserve to be so highly ranked." -dank

I said this in the begining, Why not? let your buddies on squad , play or get a game, why do you think your all complaining about not being able to find a game, becuase there 3wbs online and 2 javs, so y would the #1 warbird squad risk losing a ton of points.... but no they sit there and wait till the next day so they have 5 wbers on and then totally annilate any squad they face.
It's a double edge sword no matter how you put it, but id rather see there 3wbers and 2javs play for 15points and have a chance for the lower team to win rather then not seeing them play at all. It's makes twd more active.


"we need lower ranking teams to keep this league alive, if you make it too hard for them to compete then we're basically just shooting ourselves in the foot. I guess I kind of want a structural adjustment but nothing too extreme or too harsh."-cops

So as you can see with what i wrote up above couldnt this give those lower a better chance at wining? even tho its only 15points. instead of losing a lozey 5points?

[Witness]

the problem with this is that they get there by beating good teams a lot in twdd, and only get a hundred or so points ahead by beating them 20 times. if they beat them 20 times in teh new one, they'd have gained 1000 points instead of 100. i think that make make the gap at the top bigger, while making the gap at the bottom possibly smaller. maybe that's what you're going for?

Wrong! they wouldnt earn that much because once they win they move up the other team moves down, maybe twice depending on the range. and they would be out of there range and only be playing for 30 or 15 points max.. and when i say max, it means its still divided by the probability of the team, you are most likely not even gonna get 50 a game unless your exactly the same rank , just how it is now.

[Cops]

I kind of want to make it a level playing field, I can see how Witness's changes are way too much in favor of the higher ranking squads but I can also see how the current format makes it too easy for lower ranking squads to get up the ladder very quickly.

I think you can accommodate both groups of players by increasing points a top team gets for playing a team of its caliber while decreasing the points a lower ranking team gets for winning a game against a top ranking team. I'm not sure what the max points is right now for a lower ranking team beating a top ranking team, I'm thinking 30-50 but anything over 30 is ridiculous. I think lower ranking squads need less restrictions. I think Witness's idea of forcing strong competition through TWD by harsh restrictions on lower ranking teams might have worked 3-4 years ago but right now we need lower ranking teams to keep this league alive, if you make it too hard for them to compete then we're basically just shooting ourselves in the foot. I guess I kind of want a structural adjustment but nothing too extreme or too harsh.

[DankNuggets]

The problem that I see is that there's problems with any sort of way you go about this. The current system doesn't work because squads get 1200-1300 points and just sit as one of the top ranking TWLB teams until the cut off.

the problem with this is that they get there by beating good teams a lot in twdd, and only get a hundred or so points ahead by beating them 20 times. if they beat them 20 times in teh new one, they'd have gained 1000 points instead of 100. i think that make make the gap at the top bigger, while making the gap at the bottom possibly smaller. maybe that's what you're going for?

[DankNuggets]

Why on earth wouldnt it... If the lower squads can play each other and earn 50 points a wack, how can they not move up the ladder

because at this rate, the top squads will also be moving up the ladder at a rapid pace- it just moves the ceiling on it up, or removes it altogether. I can easily see a top team in twdd getting a 5 game streak against top 5 opponents and earning 250 pts intead of 30 or so points. A lower squad isn't going to get as many streaks, regardless of competetions.

the more they move up the more the range move up, the faster they get to challenge the top squad,

only if the top squad is inactive, which maybe they all are in bd, idk. if the top squads are active, you're not gonna catch them, b/c the point change helps them as much as it helps lower squads, if not more.

its gonna peak at the top, and the top line will have to play and defend there title more, or they will just sit there and everyone will pass them by, its gonna force them to play.

this happens currently. if you think that changing the amount of points per game will stop the best teams from getting streaks and going up 500 pts on everyone else, i'm not convinced. they'll still get enough to get comfortable, and if someone gets close, they'll just play enought to get that lead back.

I'm not sure how you figuire all games would be small, just the games when a you play someone outside your range, but range is always moving according to ladder.

depends on the range, they could be big or small, but instead of a 'big' game against a better opponent, now a 'big' game is against a slightly better/worse opponent. this is just up to what you think "big" should be: me-unlikely win=big reward; you-close competiton=big reward. i'll concede that as diff of opinion

Earn Your spot??????????? of course it would be earn your spot.. everyone starts out at 1000pts not like someone starts out 2000pts ahead wtf read before you respond you sound like some newbie that has no idea that twd resets...

well if you took your own advice and read what i said

And btw, I'd consider winning an am league "earning your spot".

you'd realize that I was talking about the proposed ametuer league in which the winner would automatically qualifiy for TWL, whereas they wouldn't necessarily (although very likely would) have qualified under the current system. i only put this in there since i'm in favor of it, and i'm sure some people argue that it would be an easy way into twl.


so i'm not even sure why you're talking about starting at different points in the ladder. i certainly didn't say anything about handicaps or the like. i'm fully aware of how twd functions, i'm pretty sure i haven't said anything to the contrary. you sound like some newb that has no idea about the other proposed changes to the upcoming twl season...

[Cops]

Why on earth wouldnt it... If the lower squads can play each other and earn 50 points a wack, how can they not move up the ladder , the more they move up the more the range move up, the faster they get to challenge the top squad, its gonna peak at the top, and the top line will have to play and defend there title more, or they will just sit there and everyone will pass them by, its gonna force them to play. I'm not sure how you figuire all games would be small, just the games when a you play someone outside your range, but range is always moving according to ladder.

Earn Your spot??????????? of course it would be earn your spot.. everyone starts out at 1000pts not like someone starts out 2000pts ahead wtf read before you respond you sound like some newbie that has no idea that twd resets...

competition will be in a constant state of flux, higher ranking teams will be 'forced' to play lesser squads if they want to hang on to their points, which makes crappy teams better. Squads fighting within their own level of competition will emerge on top of other squads which will fight other squads and so on and so forth. Squads wishing to earn their spot in TWL will need to keep playing instead of getting 1300 points and waiting a week like I've seen tons of squads do.

The problem that I see is that there's problems with any sort of way you go about this. The current system doesn't work because squads get 1200-1300 points and just sit as one of the top ranking TWLB teams until the cut off. I'm still not a hundred percent about this system, it does seem to make it so squads work their way up the ladder instead of winning 5-6 big games and securing a TWL spot. I could also see this making it so strong squads never feel too secure about where they're sitting, you have to keep playing and out-performing if you want into TWL. I think one of the main problems Juice had last year was squads near cut-off refused to play us because 1-2 loses and they'd be out of TWLB. I'll be honest though, I think each squad needs to be examined by several members of staff and voted on whether the squad has truly proven it's worth, and when I say staff I don't mean left_eye. I think squads can abuse any system you put in place, so realistically over-sight needs to be put in place.

I think my main concerns are

a) lesser squads can secure a TWL spot by winning 5 big games
b) skilled competition between squads of relative same ranking is worth 3-5 points
c) beating squads with higher rankings is worth too much points
d) any system you put in place is flawed, over-sight must be key

I don't think a squad who wins against the first place squad deserves something like 6 points. I think a simple lowering the points squads get for winning against higher ranking squads and raising the points squads get from beating squads of same ranking would work fine. I think before you put any system in place you must point out its faults and work to address them with other stipulations and rules. Basically tweak things until they seem relatively balanced.

[ShadowHand]

I like it, it forces stronger squads to play lesser squads without fear of losing all their points. It also makes it so crappy squads need to work their way up the ladder instead of winning 5-6 big games and securing a TWL spot. I think TWD has been so badly abused that no matter what there's always 1-2 squads that get fucked over because squads milk points a few days before TWL cut off. I'd like to see better executive calls on the part of upper staff to determine who'd be better placed in TWL than other squads.
.

agreed.

I really like your idea witness. nicely done

[Witness]

why on earth would you think that by changing the point system as you've stated, you'd increase competition?



this is how it will slow ladder changes down: currently, you end up playing squads all over the ladder per who's available that you want to play. you win big, you advance a few spots, lose big go down a few spots. a small win/loss doesn't move you much, but most of the time, it's at least 20-30pts for us at least. Also, consider a small win an easier win, and therefore you shouldn't get rewarded as much. Under your system, virtually all games would be small, even if you increased the range. Therefore, you'd move slower. not even really an argument for that one.



not at all. it doesn't force anyone to do anything. it simply gives squads with higher ratings a chance to cover their ass and not own up to losses. on top of that, it discredits lower squad by saying they don't deserve a win that they earned and that they have to prove their status by some method other than beating the top teams

I'm not saying that you're wrong for wanting to try a jd, i'm saying that if you're in a squad that stands to lose a lot of points by fielding you as a player, maybe 1) you shouldn't play for them or 2) they don't deserve to be so highly ranked.

Simply put, a high ranked team should never lose to a bottom team, and there should be a punishment for them if they do. A low ranked team, shouldn't win against a higher, so there's a great incentive if they do.

This is nothing more than the TWL club trying to cover their own ass to ensure being invited back, while at the same time trying to keep newer squads from joining this "prestigious" league. Shut up and earn your spot, not on past experience, but by what you do today and in the next months. And btw, I'd consider winning an am league "earning your spot".

Why on earth wouldnt it... If the lower squads can play each other and earn 50 points a wack, how can they not move up the ladder , the more they move up the more the range move up, the faster they get to challenge the top squad, its gonna peak at the top, and the top line will have to play and defend there title more, or they will just sit there and everyone will pass them by, its gonna force them to play. I'm not sure how you figuire all games would be small, just the games when a you play someone outside your range, but range is always moving according to ladder.

Earn Your spot??????????? of course it would be earn your spot.. everyone starts out at 1000pts not like someone starts out 2000pts ahead wtf read before you respond you sound like some newbie that has no idea that twd resets...

[Bobyz]

i think this is a great idea!

but i don't see how it will work for the basing ladder. It is too small for this system to work for it.

[DankNuggets]

why on earth would you think that by changing the point system as you've stated, you'd increase competition?

I'm not sure it would slow the ladder changes down. The lower squads are gonna be able to move up the ladder more quickly if they win.

this is how it will slow ladder changes down: currently, you end up playing squads all over the ladder per who's available that you want to play. you win big, you advance a few spots, lose big go down a few spots. a small win/loss doesn't move you much, but most of the time, it's at least 20-30pts for us at least. Also, consider a small win an easier win, and therefore you shouldn't get rewarded as much. Under your system, virtually all games would be small, even if you increased the range. Therefore, you'd move slower. not even really an argument for that one.

I like it, it forces stronger squads to play lesser squads without fear of losing all their points.

not at all. it doesn't force anyone to do anything. it simply gives squads with higher ratings a chance to cover their ass and not own up to losses. on top of that, it discredits lower squad by saying they don't deserve a win that they earned and that they have to prove their status by some method other than beating the top teams

I'm not saying that you're wrong for wanting to try a jd, i'm saying that if you're in a squad that stands to lose a lot of points by fielding you as a player, maybe 1) you shouldn't play for them or 2) they don't deserve to be so highly ranked.



Simply put, a high ranked team should never lose to a bottom team, and there should be a punishment for them if they do. A low ranked team, shouldn't win against a higher, so there's a great incentive if they do.



This is nothing more than the TWL club trying to cover their own ass to ensure being invited back, while at the same time trying to keep newer squads from joining this "prestigious" league. Shut up and earn your spot, not on past experience, but by what you do today and in the next months. And btw, I'd consider winning an am league "earning your spot".

[Cops]

I like it, it forces stronger squads to play lesser squads without fear of losing all their points. It also makes it so crappy squads need to work their way up the ladder instead of winning 5-6 big games and securing a TWL spot. I think TWD has been so badly abused that no matter what there's always 1-2 squads that get fucked over because squads milk points a few days before TWL cut off. I'd like to see better executive calls on the part of upper staff to determine who'd be better placed in TWL than other squads.

Seriously though, build can suck a nut for not playing one single TWLB squad and still thinking they deserved to be in TWLB over Juice. Fuck that shit homie, and fuck the 50+ player rosters for not realizing Juice needed 1-2 competent basers. If last TWLB sucked it wasn't because of Juice.

[Witness]

the plunger, the mirror, bottled water, global warming. Need i say more?

Still not for this idea thou.

I quess you've never seen an old plunger, or and old mirror. Bottled water purification, easier to transport in then the old cantine.? global warming hmm tough one.. new cars and factories that produce less emissions? does that count? But it does keep getting warmer Ionno feels like an improvement here in michigan. hahaha.

lmao 2 funny dude. Now really going off track but oh well. ps dont help ricko out the ? was for him.

[HateTheFake]

I hardly see a few lines of code as a waste of time. And please name one thing that hasnt been improved in your lifetime?

the plunger, the mirror, bottled water, global warming. Need i say more?

Still not for this idea thou.

[Witness]

Okay, so TW is dying because the current Elo rating system is bad? Hmm... That is not too often blamed.

I'm not saying the elo system is bad, im just saying it could use a change.
If i thought it was bad would i still use it in the coding still.. No

Tuning the points will not get DD players streaming into JD.

NO it wont get all dd players streaming into but maybe it will get a few. You see that as a bad thing?

The yellow ship still sucks no matter how you distribute points. So does basing.

Your opinion and its not good for tw overall.=/

And this new system should also improve loyalty?[ Right... the reason for fewer squads and players is something entirely different than the Elo rating system.

Trust me you cant tell me that 1 person didnt quit playing last year from the way twd ended, and twl was picked. I'm not saying it was all the ranking system fault or twl's fault but maybe a better ranking system would help no? but this is kinda going off track of what i hope this will really change, which is people playing more..

the points system is one of the few things that DOESN'T need improving, so why waste our time on this when there are much more important things to improve on such as the structure of twl/twl site and adding a TWLA side.

I hardly see a few lines of code as a waste of time. And please name one thing that hasnt been improved in your lifetime? Your car? that monitor your staring at to read this post? subspace 1.35? You might be able to get me with your open mindness to try new things.. Ouch thats RED and HOT dont touch it..ever.. Hahaha joking, and if im wasting your time SORREEEEEY, but how the hell em i gonna know what people think without asking. If i didnt want your opinions would I have posted it?

[Ricko]

the points system is one of the few things that DOESN'T need improving, so why waste our time on this when there are much more important things to improve on such as the structure of twl/twl site and adding a TWLA side.