TWD Cup Details

[Dierienow]

Also everybody who hates cheaters knows they thrive off of your reaction. That's why anyone who cares about their image wont go out any say "oh I quit because you cheated" they'll just make up some bs excuse lmao. Yeah I'm sure people are too busy to play this game literally once a week.

[Dierienow]

Yep nothing new in the history of people. There is no point to not manipulate any system you encounter. There is no such thing as honor, only winning in whatever little game you play. If there is no punishment for cheating, people will cheat. You will find this the case in any sort of society - the most religious, the wealthiest, the most hard done by. Human behaviour is only restrained by the artificial limits we decide to impose. If there is a reward introduced tomorrow for killing sweet old ladies there's going to be a massacre (unless there is some counter reward put out by some moral person or group). When you groom people to be so materialistic, so self-consumed, there is no alternative. It's a virus that makes its way into every avenue and nook of the society. Capitalism, more than just a political system, puts money in the place of God and so what is rewarded must be good. It does not matter the path I took to get there - after all cheating is not inherently bad. Maybe I'm a Robin Hood type figure. Maybe I'll lie and cheat my way to the top and when I'm there make the world much better than I could without money. Some people rationalize their decisions like this but they only rarely actually do good.

You could also take the approach that it's just a game. Who cares if anybody cheats? There are two responses. The first is that it must be beneficial to your experience to cheat. There must be some reason for you to cheat or you would not do it. Therefore anyone saying "why do you care if I cheat in this game" can be answered in full by responding, "why do you care enough to cheat?". The second line of argument is that everything is a game, even life. So what if I manipulate the political climate for instability and conflict - that might just be a game for me. Therefore the response "it's just a game" can be used in any sort of context because games (viewed as a system to manipulate and win) can be anything you want. Manipulating your people to send them to war for your profit - just a game.

This game has been ripe for abuse the entire time. As long as people care about the reward (titles) and there are loose enforcement of rules, there will be cheaters. And this game naturally has poor enforcement of rules because people are involved at every junction, almost nothing is automated like newer games. Every person in a position of power over some aspect of the game is peer pressured or manipulated or profiting as well.

That's why I find it so hilarious when people want even less activity in this game. They will make a lot of noise and rarely address your points, hoping that their previous rounds of cheating and deceit carries its weight to now.

I can prove that this is the case, that cheating has dominated this game, quite reasonably I think. For starters you will have a significant amount of mediocre players around in a so-called compeitive league, because actual good players were gone the moment the competitive field wasn't completely even. Why waste your time on a shit game when there are plenty of better competitive games available. So you have people like i.d., J-B-Inc., and many more who actually get quite angry about the fact that they probably couldn't beat you in a duel. Somewhere during the years they actually believed they were good at a game because they were on the cheater's side. They don't even realize how many people are brown nosing them and building up their ego only for me to take it down.

Just some thoughts after reading the first chapter of Trotsky's "Appeal to the Toiling... Peoples of Europe". Let us remember that this type of thinking, at least, this self-serving "only I matter" attitude is capable of very real anarchy that one day, could be a simple video game's downfall and the next day the downfall of civilization. Thank you.

[Crescent Seal]

ok so nothin new

ty bai

[Dierienow]

Tl;dr:

This zone is operated by a bunch of faggots, of course, all being masturbated in every direction and technique by the same old jerk boys. Nobody accomplished anything or changed views. People realized TSL sucks because its too late and the game was already slowly strangled by the small group of players who managed to jerk staff off just right.

[Crescent Seal]

cud sum1 gif me tl;dr version

[Zeebu]

i guess so, yeah. none of the old folks that were really good are coming back anymore anyway.

[zidane]

Should reward the squads that are actually keeping this game remotely alive. I'd imagine most people don't think twd cup is anything close to twl.. who really cares if paladen is in the playoffs. At the end of the day they're going to get steamrolled by whatever good squad played enough games (envy). It does seem to be working a bit as there's more games than usual. Should consider another twdt season and let tsl die asap

[Zeebu]

screw off twd cup and just incorporate an all inclusive pyramid ladder tournament style. we had something like that ages and ages ago. make it mandatory that you accept a couple challenges a week per league. outline specific rules for challenging other squads. set aside blocks of time per week that are allowable times to schedule games.

weekly participation is good because you must accept the challenges per the outlined rules. also the more talented squads should rise towards the top of the pyramid and stay there given enough time.

[Ricko]

Players on this forum seem to be content when a new player in pub with a rec of K:200 D:600 gets more pubbux than those of us here that still play pub and go 100-20.

That's because it's pub, it is and always has been a more casual affair. It is meant to be casual gaming, whereas TWD is (or at least was) meant to be somewhat competitive.

When it comes to TWD 2.0 people are confusing it with something which it is not. Rather than an alternative for TWL, it is meant more like our pub.

Nope, no it isn't. That's your perception of it, and your perception is different from most people who have put years into competitive TWD and TWL play. TWD at worst is or was meant to be a half way house between Pub and TWL.

The issue we have is this bubble of casual gamers who have taken prevalence in the zone because they still somehow can play 5+ hours a day when the rest of us have had to slow down our gaming due to real life. This bubble of players has tried to push things like TSL and casual TWDing to the forefront, whilst killing off the highly competitive aspect of TW that kept a majority of players active over the last 15+ years. This in turn has meant the speeding up of the pre-existing player decline we have been seeing over the last few years.

I think very few people ever accused the old TWD pts system of being broken, maybe those people who are still around now who pushed for this change or actually like them are those who failed to achieve any success in TWD/TWL when things mattered more?

[skyforger]

Players on this forum seem to be content when a new player in pub with a rec of K:200 D:600 gets more pubbux than those of us here that still play pub and go 100-20.

When it comes to TWD 2.0 people are confusing it with something which it is not. Rather than an alternative for TWL, it is meant more like our pub - a breeding ground - abeit for new squads rather than players. There is a reason such setup works and as Dierienow pointed out, modern popular commercial games use similar systems for their casualpetetive ladders for a good reason! If it is a success, it can then be used to build greater squad leagues and provide some additional longevity.

From my perspective, attempts to go back to some variant of the failed original TWD scoring will kill TWD sooner or later depending on how regressive the changes would be.

Per game theory it should work like this for squads:

a) full blown negative penalty for a loss - only accept a match as favorite to win;
b) 0 points - accept a match you may win;
c) activity bonuses - play as much as possible even with slim to none chances to win.

In TWD2.0 right now odds are a challenge will be scooped up by Paladen or Sulake, especially if not in prime time. Coincidentally or not, these two also seem to be the only ones open to recruit newcomers from TSL/!lfs (exceptions apply) to keep the activity up. Remove the liquidity of games these two currently provide and it's gg - much the same as removing the incentive for the 200-600 guys to keep pubbing.

[Rab]

I fed some fairly large loss numbers into my spreadsheet and it didn't do much - because the points awarded for wins have been artificially high as a consequence of ratings not being fully reduced when someone loses.

[afghan]

I have run a very successful league in EG so while I’m not very old in TW i feel like I have some merit with my recommendation. I think one way that could help settle things are capping how many points you lose for losses. Make it 5 points for every loss rather than 20+. If it’s 5-10 points for every loss, that might balance things out a little bit. That would give -100 to -250 for 25 losses. This wouldn’t completely flip a team to the bottom and would still encourage games without making it seem hopeless for a new team trying to make the top 5. Also, looking at the spreadsheet reveals the flaws a little more. Paladen and Potenza have essentially the same amount of wins yet Paladen is ahead simply by playing more games. 27-31 should not be better than 26-4. It’s unrealistic to expect a new team to try and come remotely close to competing to knock off teams like Sulake or Paladen. 30 games at 30 minutes a piece is 15 hours of playing. I think a limited penalty like I mentioned would be the better compromise by not going back to the old system while also not penalizing activity.

[skyforger]

I'll just add that for the purposes of TWD Cup, it does not really matter much in what place you finish in regular season, as long as it is TOP5.

"Deserving a spot" is a can of worms for a philosophical discussion. Certainly a squad that has grinded the whole season and is pushing 100 games like Paladen could be argued have shown more dedication for the spot than a squad that has just been created around roster softlock and has played say 2 games total, wouldn't it?

That said the race for the Cup spots is still very much open even for late squads! Like right now a squad with 5 games total per season would qualify if the regular season would end now in DD. That is rather relaxed as the TWD Cup is meant as playoff for the TWD squads afterall.

That said, seeing as some vet squads don't have the time for a daily or even sunday grind, perhaps it is time to introduce a 3rd league in addition to TSL and TWD. One with primarily the legacy players in mind and only scheduled games, say, could auto invite any squads that have a minimum of 5 ex-TWL players on their roster. That's just brainstorming but there are solutions if we build up instead of trying to tear down!

[Ricko]

I did a quick spreadsheet to see how many points squads have gained from losses, to see if removing those points would change the ladder.

tl/dr: Changing $5 to $0 would make fuck all difference. We'd have to revert back to losing points based on rating to change anything.

Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Yeah I did the maths mentally too - reducing a loss from 5 to 0 points doesn't make much difference. I'd say reverting to losing points for a loss is a better solution - if losing will cost you points and ladder positions then that's only a positive in terms of making twd competitive. Why we even changed the pts system is beyond me (this isn't coming from someone who dislikes change, but dislikes pointless decisions that don't better the zone in any way).

[Rab]

I did a quick spreadsheet to see how many points squads have gained from losses, to see if removing those points would change the ladder.

tl/dr: Changing $5 to $0 would make fuck all difference. We'd have to revert back to losing points based on rating to change anything.

Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing