TSL and Basing Cup Announcement

[Rough]

15% show rate for this event

[RaCka]

Thanks RaCka, Oggie & legends of subspace. I do have a request, please consider game changing match times so it's not in the middle of the day on Sunday. Appreciate it.

Yo Grasps ! The good thing with TSL is that it runs over the course of multiple days within the same week, so this season will probably be something like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Sunday with all differing times to allow players from all time zones to have a fair shot at getting as many games as possible within the 1 month period.

We'll get an official schedule posted prior to this season starting $

[Grasps]

Thanks RaCka, Oggie & legends of subspace. I do have a request, please consider game changing match times so it's not in the middle of the day on Sunday. Appreciate it.

[HellzNo!]

Thanks for the initiative fellas, looking forward to playing in my first TSL

[Zapata]

Great effort, RaCka and Og. Thanks for this.

Never played TSL and Basing Cup before. Seems like fun, gonna give it a try.

[zidane]

Basingcup should be fun, hopefully the caps are all at a similar level or it could be a bit of a mess

[RaCka]

viop11 TSL will end Dec 14th, Ogron brought up some good points last night how hosting another TWDT from Jan - Feb after this TSL would make more sense and then lead into the next TWL around March

[viop11]

gr8 pisitifity n vision ricki, i persinilly pribibly won't vs ne mitchis cuz i nefir haf a urge to blist any1, but i think your idea makes gr8 sense to keep zine actif durink christimis n jiwishi

i was jus windirink aftir tsl if you kniw if it will b twdt or twl? jus wondirink so i cud stirt 2 assembil ripitish if neetid so i dun get stuck with sum emo pipsqu1ks who r supposed 2 b core playirs becuz they haf sum tilint but leaf/piss away @ first sign of anything not goink their way. ty

[RaCka]

saiyan has some fair points that can definitely be fixed prior to the season starting. The purpose of this TSL is to keep activity healthy during the holiday season for the next month (Nov 14 - Dec 14). Running TWDT back to back seemed a little redundant and I feel like this is the perfect time to bring back TSL as a happy medium.

Turban I understand the hesitancy but the community can make the league as good or as bad as they want it to be (IE: check season 1-5 to see the drop off). The finals have potential to be as competitive as we want it to be, think about the possible line ups.

TSL checks all the boxes for where the game is at currently. EVERYBODY gets to play and the BEST 10 warbirds and javs get to compete for the titles. The season is 1 month long in total and can be a huge success if the community buys into the league.

[Turban]

I do like TSL as a concept, but it could use some heavy tweaking if you want to actually make it into a more competitive format. I have similar problems with it as Saiyan does.

As it currently stands it is essentially a fun league to kill time with the hopes of boosting activity, but I fail to see it as a competitive league and will be skipping it again. I am sure some like it though, and that's absolutely fine.

However might play some weekend basing cup games, those can be quite enjoyable at times.

[renzi]

Big props and thanks to Racka, og, and all for organizing and running all of these leagues back to back. Really good work all around. Looking forward to more 👍

[saiyan]

Claushouse A zone I refuse to mention has a system where it worked pretty well with a smaller population than TW. The only obstacle was aliases - which can be eliminated. You're right in the sense that the # of games required to calibrate would be a problem for people who aren't very active - but this doesn't have to be their league.

In my personal experience, it would take anywhere from 100-300 rounds/matches to calibrate your rating. That's one of the reasons why I said it would increase activity. The other reason is that I assume some of us are competitive and wouldn't like to see our name below some other names on a ladder that's precisely meant to determine who is the best.

Another zone went so far as to incorporate win margins into the formula and it became some of the most try hard space ships EVER. Its not totally necessary, but that's the way to go if you want to get the most out of people.

My main gripe with the current TSL format comes from the fact that the whole thing has no risk. If I understand it correctly you're literally just chasing 20 big scores with no risk involved because your worst scores wont count. I cant even call it a performance because that's something totally different. I'm one of these (apparently few) people who believes you can play excellent and get a humble score, but also drop 18 while playing like an idiot. I guess this league just isn't for me, which is no problem.

Regardless, I'll look into it further. Maybe it can be tried out in wbduel/javduel if anyone gives a shit.

[Vehicle]

So I never played TSL and it does sound kind of fun. Why can't we have it for basing?

Edit: I'm also curious about how aliases are going to be handled? There are still tons of guys running around alt-nicked, I personally don't care, but I could see it wrecking some games?

[ronaldinho]

too disgusted I'm still not going to play base, fuck tw im done

[ogron]

I would have been so hyped if you used a proper ELO formula for TSL instead of using worthless personal stats. It would incentivize playing to win, increase activity and the average skill in here would go up significantly..

It would uncover truths you may not be aware of and finally give you some sort of objective, numerical measure about how impactful various players are in various ships. Gamescore isn't it.. Sorry to tell you.

Making people play for stats isnt healthy. There already is such a league that rewards that kind of play, its called ELIM.

Is it too late to change?

saiyan in a perfect world, i agree 100%.

with 100,000 players each playing several hundred games, you could simply use ELO based on winning and nothing else and arrive at the most impactful players.

200 players playing between 20 to 60 games is far too small a sample size for elo be effective.

most multi-time TWL champions understand the value of luring, pressure, covering, leading fire to cut enemies off, funneling, not dodging into your teammates, proper spreading out, fighting for control of the edges of the battle lines in TWLD, fighting for control of the center in TWLJ, etc. but it is impossible to quantify those things with such a small number of games.

if everyone in Trench Wars played 500 games in TSLD you could use ELO. Whoever wins the most is likely the best.

cheating statistically is likely going produce much better results than ELO over 20 GP. this is what BPM does in the NBA. instead of doing an all encompassing on-court, off-court metric like RPM or PIPM/LeBRON or APM it cheats using boxscores and past priors. It just looks at boxscores, so it's basically not looking at winning at all.



Is BPM the truth of who is the best? No. It's not looking at winning at all, but the list of players is pretty good and the best players are generally near the top.

TSL isn't determining who is truly the best, it's measuring who puts up the best recs, and the best players can usually do that.

We can incentivize winning by increasing the Win Bonus, and Racka plans to increase that by quite a bit over previous ratings, but TSL is never going to truly measure who is the absolute best warbird or jav. Nor is it trying to. That is simply not possible when most players won't hit 50 GP, many will barely hit 20 GP, and a few will near 100 GP.

It's trying to let everyone play, let players with different participation rates all have a shot at making All-Stars (i.e., Ease hitting #2 in jav with only 20 GP when everyone else has 60), and be a mix of fun, inclusiveness, and competition.

If the win bonus is big enough, and you get 0 for not winning, there should be strong enough incentive to make winning plays that don't directly contribute to your boxscore in order to get the bonus to your personal rating in that game.

And for what it's worth, I've tried stuff like this before, and overcoming the small sample sizes using multi-year sample sizes, adjusting for lineup strengths, and completely ignoring stats and only looking at time won to see how many minutes per game each player is worth over a replacement player.

It just doesn't work. The sample sizes are too small, player talent changes over time, there's too much noise and wonkiness for it to be of any real value. Like Mattey is probably the player who, IMO, is worth the most ever in base, and he's #1 in shark, but Rodney is #3 and I promise on all that is holy that is not correct. megaman89 is also one of the most impactful spiders of all-time and he's way too low... good players tend to be near the top and bad players near the bottom but overall in terms of parsing true impact it's worthless. that list doesn't tell me much.

Maybe you know of a workaround, but for my part at least I've never found one that would make ELO or APM work in this game.