*cap thoughts for next DT

[Zeebu]

ok let me rephrase

we know that this particular twdt isnt great. the star caps/number of teams/benching is a situation this time. most of that can be explained with having only enough caps and players for 6 teams and then abruptly having enough players for 8 teams (with no vet cap options) right before the draft

I get that this season is less than ideal. please refrain in totally changing the twdt format based on one summer's twdt league.

twdt is the only league i much care about or participate in. i like the fact that it can include the entire population. i like that concessions have to be made to field a valid lineup. i dont care that this leads to some players being out of their element sometimes. thats always been a part of the twdt experience.

lets really get down to it. a lot of the (vocal) high level vets dont want to play with the 6s and the 7s. so a couple of the options thrown out there include to shunt the lower level players to a different league or to raise/remove the cap to field higher star lines. both of these things effectively remove the 6s and 7s from the pool of vet play. both of those options would probably also achieve twdt's over-arching goal as well, team parity. all it costs is 50% of the league population. since theyre all from the bottom of the barrel though its probably fine.

[Zeebu]

ITT: RIP TWDT

[Turban]

Jessup

I frankly don't think it is an overstatement unless we start including majority of 7.5 players into the mix. An average 7-star in current format, when paired with solid team mates averages probably 6 kills a game. Lower stars even less down to maybe 1 or 2 kills per game. There are definitely some who overperform at times, but generally speaking I would expect these games (current DT limit vs a low star team) end at best case scenario around 50-30, but most of the time worse.

Nevertheless I do believe mid-to-low skill players are the carrying force of this zone keeping it active, thus they do deserve their occasional league. Riverside proposing something similar to Hockey Zone Beer League could work with some tweaks.

[Riverside]

There is no way this zone can support a 4 team low star league Turban. I'm glad you agree with a three-tier system for twdt though. I think you are overstating the blowouts factor too. If a team was made by people who were not finding themselves used who had an opt out choice to join a "low-tier" squad it wouldn't be near as dismal imo as you are thinking. This idea would improve participation too because it allows an avenue for those who are being passed by in certain seasons due to circumstance to compete.

Subspaces Hockey Zone arena (6v6), which has a smaller active & inactive Zone population than Trench Wars, supports a "Beer League" (lower tier, let's say 7.5*/8* or lower) with many teams, where teams have a limit of x (2 out of 6 in HZ?) higher skilled players in at once.

With enough volunteers on the Operating Teams, a dual solution of 2 leagues running: a Pro League, and a Beer League, could:

• Introduce new times to Trench Wars, thereby re-engaging inactive members of the community who can only play during: times that are more international-friendly (earlier in the afternoon than TWDT) and evening/night games (weekdays and/or weekends)
• Give higher starred players the league they've been asking for
• Allows lower starred vets to play competitive League games with 1-2 higher starred players: improving their own gameplay (often), desire to improve through TWD games (sometimes) and consequently, the overall competitiveness of the Zone

[Jessup]

There is no way this zone can support a 4 team low star league Turban. I'm glad you agree with a three-tier system for twdt though. I think you are overstating the blowouts factor too. If a team was made by people who were not finding themselves used who had an opt out choice to join a "low-tier" squad it wouldn't be near as dismal imo as you are thinking. This idea would improve participation too because it allows an avenue for those who are being passed by in certain seasons due to circumstance to compete.

[Turban]

I think it's simply better to have one slot for 7-star or below on each team. It's then up to captains to give chances throughout the season. TWDT is not really meant to be a training ground of sorts. Adding a team that will lose by 25 or more kills every time is extremely demotivating for players, and I daresay only few would enjoy playing in those kind of games.

However that's merely my opinion on the matter.

An alternative to your proposal would be a separate 7-star or below league with 4 teams.

[Jessup]

Saying this is a lose-lose situation is a bit of an overstatement Turban. Players who will basically be shut out of leagues will be able to participate and there is enough skill even in lower tier players these days to have a possibility to win. In 1 Round games things can happen and I would wager to say that you are underestimating the possibilities of a low tier team of pulling off upsets. I also didn't just suggest the low tier team idea but suggested removing 4 slot tiers to 3 slot tiers in TWDT to close the cracks in the rating system. This could strengthen the quality of a low tier team too. I disagree with your take on the idea.

[Turban]

Problem with that suggestion is that no one enjoys complete stomps, thus it's a lose-lose situation.

[Jessup]

Here is suggestion, maybe just rearrange the draft from VPs into tiers:
top-tier - ratings 9-10
mid-tier - ratings 7.5-8.5
low-tier - ratings 6-7

In duelling, team is allowed to field 2 top-tier and 3 mid-tier players. If they want to use another top-tier, they have to sacrifice mid-tier for low-tier, so 3 top-tier 1 mid 1 low. Looking at ratings, we have around 18-20 top tier players, so majority of them would get played and have no reason to whine, especially with 8 team league setup, while majority of spots would go to biggest group, the mid-tiers and if there is some upcoming low-tier player worth the spot, he can have a chance as well.

In basing we have around 33-36 top tier players. So there setup of 3 top-tier 5 mid-tier with possibility to switch to 4-top 3-mid 1-low seems fair.
From my point of this, this has many advantages:
1) arranging lineups is far easier, which maybe encourages more people to cap, subbing also does not have to mean some complicated switches where 2 ppl get subbed for 2 to keep the VP limit, which is disturbing for caps, especially if they play at the same time.
2) rating players is less flawed and getting gametime is much more up to you and your skills rather than points not fitting the lineup. I think captains are most often trying to max the limit, psychologically it feels right, but this means sometimes 8 star player gets gametime ahead of potentially better 7.5 player, who has been just rated wrong.

Potential negative effect is that the players in lower end of their tier will get less gametime.

I really like the simplicity of this idea. I think having 4 star rating slots is too much. 6 stars are usually very underrated if they get added into games and we have all seen that 6 star value be enough to push certain teams way ahead of others. Ratings are a tricky bit of business and the less slots for "star" ratings the better. 3 tiers make sense. It will tighten up the cracks we currently have in the rating system.





Also,

Just an idea to patch the inclusive aspect back into the league now that it appears by general consensus that the composition of teams will be leaning to more "l33t" makeups. How about we make ONE low tier team that gets to compete as an official team in TWDT. Sure, they will probably get slaughtered but imagine the ribbing and fun if they win a few. Would make for good entertainment and also find a way to bring inclusivity back into the community at large in leagues like TWDT. The Cap could be a group vote between all the members who qualify to be part of the low tier team. Except the draft, allow them to participate in all aspects of TWDT. Trades would be allowed but free agents in mid-tier and above would not.

I'm sure with more thought my idea could be tweaked too. The qualifying aspect for players to get on the low-tier team would need to be thought out. For example, some mid-tier player not being used on their team could withdraw from their team and join them.

This could be a fun and simple solution to fix the inclusivity aspect and more importantly give "new" players and players from other zones a chance to participate and improve their chops.

[paradise!]

Hello, I'm just your Local jav. Your local Friendly Rusher. Paradise. I'm Here to say I'm a big Fan of everyone working very hard here. I am very Much looking Forward to Playing with You all. Thank you. To exalt: Please send a Lock of your Hair please..I will make Doll of U my friend.

[viop11]

as sum1 who luvs twl becuz r1p1t1 gets to vs, twdt is incridibil 4 zine activity, and the only problem w/ this seasin is there is 6 teams when there should be 8+, and a re draft should have been done regardless of if all ciptins wantid it or not once this was obvious, even if the ppl who signup last second are j1br1n1s

if there was 8-10 teams no1 would b vsink excessive bench1nk and every1 would get 2 play, sure sum ppl may complain about having to vs alonkside girpigimin, but twdt is still agr8 f1rm1t

[Vehicle]

Why rate people 11* or 12* when we currently don't use any numbers under 6*?

I agree ratings are probably inflated from years of adjustments mostly upward. The solution is to knock everyone down a couple pegs, not lift a handful of players even higher up.

[LeeRomeno]

Here is suggestion, maybe just rearrange the draft from VPs into tiers:
top-tier - ratings 9-10
mid-tier - ratings 7.5-8.5
low-tier - ratings 6-7

In duelling, team is allowed to field 2 top-tier and 3 mid-tier players. If they want to use another top-tier, they have to sacrifice mid-tier for low-tier, so 3 top-tier 1 mid 1 low. Looking at ratings, we have around 18-20 top tier players, so majority of them would get played and have no reason to whine, especially with 8 team league setup, while majority of spots would go to biggest group, the mid-tiers and if there is some upcoming low-tier player worth the spot, he can have a chance as well.

In basing we have around 33-36 top tier players. So there setup of 3 top-tier 5 mid-tier with possibility to switch to 4-top 3-mid 1-low seems fair.
From my point of this, this has many advantages:
1) arranging lineups is far easier, which maybe encourages more people to cap, subbing also does not have to mean some complicated switches where 2 ppl get subbed for 2 to keep the VP limit, which is disturbing for caps, especially if they play at the same time.
2) rating players is less flawed and getting gametime is much more up to you and your skills rather than points not fitting the lineup. I think captains are most often trying to max the limit, psychologically it feels right, but this means sometimes 8 star player gets gametime ahead of potentially better 7.5 player, who has been just rated wrong.

Potential negative effect is that the players in lower end of their tier will get less gametime.

[Exalt]

unfort basing is the most complicated system in tw. javs and wbs are pretty straight forward, from the gameplay to the position count.

like comparing 5 players playing a game of HORSE vs 10 players playing a game of basketball.

I'd argue wbs/javs are much more like playing 5v5 basketball, while basing is much more like soccer or football.

Both require high-skill players, but one individually great player in basing surrounded by 7 scrubs isn't going to do shit. Messi isn't going to score a single goal if his teammates can't get the ball to him. He mine as well not exist since his team is needed to make him impactful. The same goes for 10*s in basing.

Compare that with basketball. Michael Jordan or Lebron James or Kobe could still win games completely by themselves even surrounded by G League scrubs. Each one of these NBA stars has done it at one point. They didn't win championships without better players around them, but they could win individual games and get to the playoffs with zero real help. The same can be done in WB/Jav. Sprackle carried Riversides team this past Sunday with 23-7 record while 3 of his teammates combined to go 2-20. This kind of thing is more easily compared with basketball.

[RageRitual]

This is the main complaint about this current TWDT format though, as the mid-level players are the ones benching right now in favor of 10*s and 6*s. I realize there are a couple of teams that play all mid-level players, but the majority of the mid-level guys are not getting playtime or getting very little. The lowest-tier players are getting disproportionate amounts of it right now in leagues they largely don't even enjoy. These aren't guys that log in during the week to practice that ship they are playing every Sunday either, so this isn't suddenly encouraging basers to play dueling leagues or vice-versa. It's simply happening because the low * cap and low amount of teams combined to create a huge bottleneck where the majority of the playerbase can't play. 10*s aren't going to be put in spec, but adding them means 6*s have to play to compensate. These are spots taken away from players that actually enjoy these ships and are thus higher rated, rather than the 6*s who clearly don't. It just seems counter-productive to what the league is "supposed" to be about if what you said is true.

The reason having no * cap makes sense is the other reason TWDT exists, which is to force talent to be spread around, rather than everyone stacking on one or two teams like TWL. For whatever reason, the playerbase in this game cannot stop themselves from stacking when given the chance, so TWDT makes that not really possible to do. With enough teams and competent captains (and seperate drafts for dueling/basing), * caps shouldn't even matter. If there are 8 teams and 8 10*s in each league, and you stop drafting for 3 leagues at once and separate them, then hypothetically each 10* would land on a separate team. Problem solved instantly without needing a * cap. No ratings of players needed to begin with. The only players this would hurt are the true 6*s and such who otherwise would get plenty of playtime in a * cap league, yet frankly, they aren't new players so the fault eventually lies on them for not improving, right?

Uncapped is the wrong direction to go, we already have this in another event, that is what cups are for. We have too many inflated ratings and not enough difference between them. If we can get the ratings to work better, then we can decide on a proper star cap.

There is no way hulk is only half a star better than mark. I mean everyone loves mark I get it, he's a great guy but that doesn't mean he should be rated 9.5.

Ratings should be based on how well the person can help you win the game not a popularity contest. Can anyone think of a good reason to not allow 11 and 12* for players to create a larger gap between the players?