You knew it was coming...

[SpiderMage]

I don't know if anyone has done a thread about this (didn't bother to look), but with the recent Bush/election threads turning into religious discussions, most notably gay marriage/abortion, I thought I'd start an actual religious thread. That and I'm bored, work night isn't even half over (12:31 am, I get off at 6).

First, let me start off by saying I have no problem with religious people, namely Christians as they seem to want to make themselves out to be the only religion that is right. My girlfriend is Christian, she has the core belief that there is a god and heaven and such, but she's open minded. I also know some "hardcore" Christians (namely my grandmother and a coworker ironically named Angel).

So why is it that Christians, since they seem to be the biggest religion in the world, feel that anyone who isn't a Christian has to be converted. Who says you are the only right way into heaven, if there is a heaven? I have been told by Angel that god created us to be obidient and to worship him. Sounds like a pretty vain god to me. That and what's with the whole "worship me or you go to hell" thing? Has faith and religion been reduced (or always has been) a "it's my ball and I'm going home" type deal?

And Christians (and most all religions, but again, focusing on the 'major'/force it on you religion), at least hardcore ones, say everyone else is wrong. These are the definitions as per dictionary.com for the word "faith":

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

See the part I bolded? You all say that everyone else is wrong, why, because the bible says so. But, other than a book, there is no evidence or proof that everyone who does not believe in god is wrong. You believe without proof that there is a god, yet you refuse to think that it can go the other way as well, and be right that someone can have faith that there is no god.

To me, if there is a god or gods, great, that's cool. But let me think for myself, as per god's will, since he gave us the power of choice and thought. It just makes no sense, none whatsoever, to create something with free will, but then be like "you HAVE TO do it this way, or else". Think of it this way, you and a significant other have a child. You want them to grow up as best they can and you instill some values into them, which is something I approve of from Christians, treat people as you want to be treated and all that. BUT, as your child, would you say to them "you have to do something this way or else you can't come home" or "you can't go out with him/her or we will disown you"? How are those two statements any different than "I am god, believe in me or you burn"?

Why can't we recognize that there could be a god or gods, and as I said, if there is, then cool. But why can't we take the basic moral values, like love one another, honor people, don't kill people, etc etc, but think outside the box of religion? Going back to the parents analogy, I bet 90% of all parents would allow their children to come back home even if they had different beliefs than them, so why is god so vain that every one of his children must be like him or else?

[Richard Creager]

Someone's a goin ta hell, yee haw.

[Saturn V]

I had some massive reply typed out, but I deleted and just came up with what is below. I was getting off topic and I was ranting too much.

First off, I'm not a Christian; I'm agnostic (which is different from atheism).

why is it that Christians...feel that anyone who isn't a Christian has to be converted

In Matthew 28:19 they're told to "go out and convert" people.

To me, one of the reasons people (whether it be Christians, Muslims, whatever) think they're right is because it's all they're exposed to. I grew up in a very religious city. Christianity was all I knew. It had to be right, right?

Wrong. I moved out. I started questioning things and looking for my own answers (I was tired of "that's just God's plan"). I would think, "What if I grew up in Senegal, Iraq, or Tibet? Would my religious views be different?" Yes. Yes they would. Thus began my fall from Christianity to becoming an agnostic.

I think people, and Americans in particular, need to realize there is stuff outside the borders of the United States.

[1ight]

The scripture cannot be understood unless there is wisdome given by God, the scripture is to be read trough the spirit or with the Holy Spirit, in other words. No wonder people have it hard to understand certain things when it comes to the Christian religion.

1. Cor 2:13
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.}
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

1. Cor 2:13
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative--and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

> feel that anyone who isn't a Christian has to be converted.
Its the desire given by Jesus, the love of Christ that drives people to tell the word of gospel. To spread the word.. it is nothing that should be forced into a person, like many "Christians" do, or so called strayed children, such children that doesn't really know whats Christianity is all about. Therefore missunderstandings is formed..

As it is you choice in life what to do or what to not do. It is true that if you don't accept Jesus into you life you will go to hell. Thats the harsh truth of the Christian religion.

Yes the bible says that there is no other God then JHVH, He who IS. That is my belief, and I believe that everything in the bible is true, also the word of God is to be judge by the word of God. You cant just read one prase in the bible and right away go to a conclusion. Sometimes a bible place can take years to understand. But the more you search for the truth about this religion the more you will understand..

What I can tell you about my own life, I was born into a Christian family, I thought I was a Christian, or I thought I knew what it was all about. Though I lived my life. My parents never forced me to read bible, they didn't baptize me either on birth, since they thought it should be my own choice to do. Of course we prayed a night prayer, that I thought was nice. As a Child I was filled with the Holy Spirit, on some meetings/Christian events. Serveral of times.. Yet I had no idea who Jesus was..

Shortly:
3-4 years ago, it was then when I finally understood. God called me through my very best friend today, since I had routs. And I decided to start go to Christian youth meetings. And the more seek God the more I got to know Jesus. I got baptized 2 years ago, since I had decided to go on the path of Jesus, to follow Him. And I feel good doin what is God's will. Of course I make misstakes, and yes I sometimes don'ät do God's will. And I regret it.. God knows whats best for us, He know the whole picture of you life. He knows everthing about you, since He created you.

Thing is that God doesn't want us to be as robots, therfore He has given us a free will to choose, either live you years here on earth as you please, or you live a life in His will. Its your choice, to believe or not, to open you hands and recieve or reject.

[SpiderMage]

1ight my friend, you missed the point.

The point is, what makes Christianity right, that only if you believe in god you will go to heaven, when there are several other religions that say the samething. What makes it that Christianity is the only right way and everything else is wrong? Besides the bible, which wants you to believe it so tells you it's the only way, what makes it right? Why can't Christians be open minded that there could be other ways than just one? Because that in its way, eliminates the free will, because fear will change someone's mind and faith and so will single exposure. So again, why is the bible the only way? And if you say "just look around you at the Earth you live on as your answer", well you can look at a tree and be like "Venus created that, Zeus created the sky, etc etc", so... for the what, fourth time, what makes Christianity the only right way?

[Desire]

http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

[Saturn V]

...

It's pointless to quote a source when people don't believe that source to begin with (the Bible). It isn't going to prove anything more.

And I ask my question to you: Do you really believe you'd be a Christian if you were born and raised in Iraq?

Do you know how many Gods the Earth has seen? Thousands. To say your God is "The God" is well, conceited.

Religion provided answers when science could not provide them. Science couldn't provide answers for a long, long time so religion had time to build followers and get all huge and crap. People are now so attached to their religion they refuse to believe any other answers* exist.

I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate, but just trying to get people thinking for themselves. It wouldn't hurt everyone to devote some time and study other religions. That's all I have to say. I'll try to avoid posting in this thread from now on.

*Eh, well, Catholicism has accepted some modern scientific theories. Go them.

[SpiderMage]

http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Wow... 'm a Deismist, of sorts, I think n.n;

[Saturn V]

Wow... 'm a Deismist, of sorts, I think n.n;

s/Deismist/Deist/

I also believe our founding fathers were Deists, too. Remember that when someone tells you America was founded as a Christian nation. Oh, and we were founded with the motto "E pluribus unum" not "In God We Trust." "In God We Trust" was added in the 1950's during the Cold War against the so-called "Godless" Soviets. It's kind of a secondary motto, but "E pluribus unum" remains the United States' primary motto.

Oh, I'm not posting in this thread anymore. I forgot. :chair:

[1ight]

Saturn, why is it pointless (to goto to the source) if we talk about the Christianity, if you talk about Christianity you go to the source to understand it. Isn't that right? You have you believes, and they started at some point somewhere, by some information or something that happend or whatever. So is it pointless to quote?

So its very hard to explain things if you don't use the bible.

In the bible there are many answers, as for why do we believe that Jesus is the only way, why I act as I act, why Christianity is Christianity.
If you don't want to go to the source, how can you then get answers? Then you are relaying on you own experience, you opinions of the bible.


Little more about me as a Christian. I know there are gods, and that they are real. I'm openminded to other religions, but I do not believe their way.
Then why do I think that their point or way isn't true? Since the words in the bible, God's words, has become true in my life. Comparing events in the bible with my own life, when prayers are answered, in many different ways. It can be trough a dream, trough an other person, trough an angel, trough some event, trough the bible etc etc.

So for my part I can't just deny the truth, if I would, then I would call Jesus a liar. When you know the truth, do you want to reject it, by start believing in other gods? When you know that the word of God is true?

If you want answers seek Him who has them, if you really want to know what is the truth you go ask Him, seek His face, get to know Him before you judge His words.

> And I ask my question to you: Do you really believe you'd be a Christian if you were born and raised in Iraq?
Why Iraq? What do you think? Isn't the answer obvious? I would be forced into muslims, a way or an other.

If you ask me, I was raised in Sweden, and I live now in Finland. As I said, my parents didn't force me into believing in God. Often parents say, don't believe in God, he is not real, that you shouldn't go near Christians. Yes, I'm radiactive.

[Jerome Scuggs]

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.

people like you ruin my christmas fantasy ;-;

[Fallen Angel]

If you want answers seek Him who has them, if you really want to know what is the truth you go ask Him, seek His face, get to know Him before you judge His words.

Interesting choice of words (no pun intended). I assume you are referring to the bible? You believe they are His words. Your whole life is based on His words.
Assuming for a minute He did at some point in history relay His will to one or more people, that still doesn't mean that the scriptures on which your religion is based are accurate to any degree. Communication is subject to misinterpretation, miscommunication / translation over time etc. Any of which could seriously impact the accurcy and validity of the Bible texts. So even if He does exist, by basing your life on those texts you are taking a gaint leap of faith. What if His will isn't accurately denoted? In any case, seen as there simply is no concrete evidence to support to existence of an omnipotent being, building your life around a religion requires a leap of faith.
Is it fair to judge people who are not willing to do just that?
Is it fair to restrict their personal freedom and choices by basing legislation on something as intangible as faith? I don't think it is.

[SpiderMage]

Christian heritage? Woah, back it up, let's do a little rewind back into history...

Pilgrims ran from Europe to ESCAPE Religious Oppression/Persecution, they landed here in America. They met the Native Americans, and said, "these are savages, they know not what we know, therefore we are better than them" in general terms, because calling them savages is saying they are beneath them. Thus, they forced their religion onto the Native Americans (read up, Pilgrims and other Europeans would kill Native Americans or force them into slavery), and persecuting them. So, America hardly holds a "Christian Heritage" unless Christianity wants to be known for such things. But lo', the list goes on! Further back into history and closer to our own time! But let's just make a list of the people shall we, that were so lovingly "taught" the word of god.

Native Americans ( taking their land, killing them and basically destroying the ENTIRE culture :bigups: )
Africans and other people of color (not all black people are from Africa), slavery and counting their fellow man to be well, not equal to men, again :bigups:
Middle Easterners (ok, so Muslims hate Christians too but remember the Crusades?)
Mexicans/Aztecs, etc (Spain brought the word of god... and slaughtered them some thousands of "savages", nice :bigups: )

That's just the major groups, we could delve into how much they persecuted their own kind in Europe, but that might just get too deep.

As I said in my original post, Christians are fine, hell any religion with a moral grounding is ok with me. But why, why do Christians, who thump their bibles through the ages, preaching the word of god, go off and destroy others? And don't say "they weren't real Christians" because I doubt there's even such a thing.

And yes, I know there have been religions other than Christians that slaughtered people (Romans and Greeks), but not to the sheer extent of the supposedly holiest and truest religion. And please, don't come up with the tired "well those are past mistakes" because you are making them all over again just in different hues. Persecution of homosexuals is at an all time high, yet you are taught to love your fellow man, unless he's gay then he deserves to die. Why? Just because a book, written by a man, "inspired" by god, said so.

And I don't know if this is true or not, but I was told that Hitler, when he began the Holocaust, was attempting to get Jesus to return.

And 1ight my friend, sorry to single you out for this small section but the post I read of yours, I just had to state this.

Have you ever read the Silmarillion( sp? ) by Tolkien, describing the creation of Middle-Earth, Heaven and all that? It is far better described than the bible, conveys a deeper sense of reality than the bible does, at least to me anyway. Why then, if I read it, and believed it all to be true and took Illuvatar to be my god, who created the watchers of the world and heaven he created and the children he put down to live upon his land, why would I be wrong? You keep saying the bible and jesus are "the truth" but no one, ever, let me say that again, ever knows the truth until you die. There are so many things that can't be explained in this world until after we die or maybe even were never meant to be explained, so putting the blanket of "it is the way it is because it is the way it is" is too much of a cop out. I would prefer a simple "I don't know" as opposed to an "because god says so" because until you die, you never know if there is a god or not, that's what faith is, believing in something you have no evidence for. So again, why do Christians feel the need to force it onto others and use the threat of hell to help them convert people? You say "we offer and you have the choice to accept or reject" but your offer is not at all fair. You are saying there is ONE road to heaven, but life, humans, animals and our humankind as a whole, have proved that there are many different means to a single end.

Remember, Christians used to believe that people of any color other than white, weren't as good as they were. And slowly, after hundreds of years, at least some of you have come to realize, maybe we were wrong. So why can't maybe, just maybe, you be wrong that there are many more ways than just one into heaven, if it exists?

[Ewan]

:groovy: :groovy: :groovy:

[Mayo Inc.]

there's no god
live to live then die

edit: i had a dream we were driving a car and got out to watch a storm and i started yelling about how there was no god, and how he couldn't show me his power even with the storm. then in my dream the sky was lit up with brilliant lightning it was pretty cool looking, i just had this dream a little while ago too. god's voice was booming throughout the sky. but i t was just a dream.