I love guns

[Sarien]

I hate guns too, they freak me out. But I don't hate my country, I think it's a great place. If I did hate it, I woudln't be a pussy and just cry about it, I'd leave.

Why do they freak you out? That seems kind of strange BZ. Have you had much exposure to using or learning one?

And leaving isn't the only solution. I think the best quote I've heard about the love it or leave it suggestion was:
"Well I won't love it unless the things I see as wrong are fixed, and I won't leave it until I've done all I could to try to fix the things that need fixing."

But hating guns, an inanimate object, is irrational. If the actions of some people who use guns, swords, weapons, pipes, etc in a destructive way freak you out, sure. But hating guns is kind of like hating cars because people drink and drive.

[Troll King]

Cars aren't designed to inflict damage onto people, animals, or other objects though. You can't say guns are a neutral object because in its essence, it isn't really.

[Sarien]

There isn't any such thing as a "neutral object". As I said in the first post, it's a pointier stick. It's a tool, the same as a car. A car is a tool built on the premise of moving faster than a human can without being as tiring to said human during transport. A gun is a tool built on the premise of doing damage to another being or object. I didn't say they were the same tools or even hating one means you hate the other because they're so similar. I said that hating one is kind of like hating the other, and it is.

But if you want a more similar comparison.
It's a whole lot like hating knives for people stabbing people.
Axes for people chopping people up, like in London today.
Swords for being swords. (How many people actually say "I hate swords").

The essence I'm getting at is that you waste time by hating the tool, instead of hating the behavior of the person doing the thing you don't like.

[genocidal]

There isn't any such thing as a "neutral object". As I said in the first post, it's a pointier stick. It's a tool, the same as a car. A car is a tool built on the premise of moving faster than a human can without being as tiring to said human during transport. A gun is a tool built on the premise of doing damage to another being or object. I didn't say they were the same tools or even hating one means you hate the other because they're so similar. I said that hating one is kind of like hating the other, and it is.

But if you want a more similar comparison.
It's a whole lot like hating knives for people stabbing people.
Axes for people chopping people up, like in London today.
Swords for being swords. (How many people actually say "I hate swords").

The essence I'm getting at is that you waste time by hating the tool, instead of hating the behavior of the person doing the thing you don't like.

Guns, and especially handguns, have no purpose other than to kill things. Handguns are primarily for concealment and killing people. If you hunt with your Glock then more power to you but that's not what it is mainly used for. Knives and axes have more practical purposes than just to kill people (as does a car) and swords are so uncommon now that who would say they hate them. I'll bet you plenty of people said they hated swords back when that was the primary weapon in combat. I hate handguns and although I don't really like all other guns I don't think they should be made illegal.

[Cleve-YB]

People that "hate" guns always amuse me. It's an inanimate object. A tool. A pointier stick.

Oh I hate my country so much because people here have guns, and guns kill people. Boo-mother-fucking-Hoo. To use the line from Archie Bunker: "Would you rather they were pushed outta windows?"

You care too much, dont worry about me faggot I'll handle my own shit. Have fun on your comp fuckin net nerd.

[SaucyKing]

You care too much, dont worry about me faggot I'll handle my own shit. Have fun on your comp fuckin net nerd.

You're on the internet too you stupid fucking asshole.

Anyway.

The guy who shot up a courthouse said I'M A SOLDJAH out loud while he was doing it. What's really hilarious is that they had psychiatrists on the news actually analyzing what the fuck he said, because apparently they've NEVER SEEN A GODDAMNED RAP VIDEO IN THEIR LIFE.

White people make me laugh sometimes.

Don'tbanmeplz

[Rudy]

I'll probably be going to duck open this weekend coming. I'll let you know how many manliness points I earn.

[Sarien]

Guns, and especially handguns, have no purpose other than to kill things.

Yeah because nobody ever target shoots for fun or relaxation?

Knives and axes have more practical purposes than just to kill people (as does a car) and swords are so uncommon now that who would say they hate them.

What more practical and necessary purpose is there in life than self defense, and defense of the lives of others?

I'll bet you plenty of people said they hated swords back when that was the primary weapon in combat.

Just say that out loud. "I hate swords." Do you not even see how ridiculous that sounds? I can't imagine anybody saying that rather than just making a bow and shooting the guy with the sword that was terrorizing them.

You are hating an inanimate object. An object that doesn't respond to your hate. It doesn't think, feel, or react in any way shape or form. Hating it doesn't do anything. It's all.. every ounce of that hate, wasted effort. Guns are a tool and an object in existence. They can't be uninvented. They can't be undone. Rather than fight the criminals you're fighting tools that criminals use. Tools that can't EVER be removed, and have a peaceful law abiding purpose as well. Tools that are guaranteed for a variety of reasons to the entirety of the American citizenry. Can't you see what a futile and pointless gesture that is?


Edit: I completely forgot about this.

You care too much, dont worry about me faggot I'll handle my own shit. Have fun on your comp fuckin net nerd.

You sure told me, Mister Cleve-YB. I am ashamed that I care too much about being a reasonable and proud citizen (for the most part) of the United States of America and the rights and duties that come in part with that. Also, that makes me like to have homosexual sex, which as we all know is bad and wrong.

[Troll King]

Do you hate levis, Sarien?

[Sarien]

I have my own foibles, sure.
Do I hate that ship? No, not as such. I think the settings are completely screwed for this zone, but I lay the blame for that squarely on the people in charge of fixing them.
Do I hate being annoyed by people that use that ship? Yup.
Also I hate the hypocritical behavior that has been shown when considering the settings for the lev in comparison to the other ships.

Was a nice try though, TK. Nice enough for me to say that in any past posts if I've said that I hated the leviathan it was meant as a shortcut to mean the reasons above, and would have been a mistake completely on my part to shorten it that way.

[genocidal]

Here we go with Mr. Holy Defender of Arms.

Yeah because nobody ever target shoots for fun or relaxation?

Sure some people do. But I seriously doubt even 10 percent of gun buyers throw down 200-1000 dollars (depending on the gun) for some relaxation. The great majority of gun users use them to kill things. Unfortunately that includes a lot of people.

What more practical and necessary purpose is there in life than self defense, and defense of the lives of others?

In my opinion this is the poorest argument that 5th Amendment activists keep pointing to. First of all the statistics are pretty clear that having a gun in your house actually puts you in more danger than it keeps you from. Second, if handguns were made illegal (or even all guns) or at least became very rare, as they are in Canada and much of Europe, then why would you need a gun to defend yourself against people who don't have guns? Third, my argument still holds that the primary purpose, and almost exclusive purpose barring minor purposes like relaxation and hobby, is to kill things. Regardless if you're defending yourself or not the intention is to severely wound or kill.

Just say that out loud. "I hate swords." Do you not even see how ridiculous that sounds? I can't imagine anybody saying that rather than just making a bow and shooting the guy with the sword that was terrorizing them.

You are hating an inanimate object. An object that doesn't respond to your hate. It doesn't think, feel, or react in any way shape or form. Hating it doesn't do anything. It's all.. every ounce of that hate, wasted effort. Guns are a tool and an object in existence. They can't be uninvented. They can't be undone. Rather than fight the criminals you're fighting tools that criminals use. Tools that can't EVER be removed, and have a peaceful law abiding purpose as well. Tools that are guaranteed for a variety of reasons to the entirety of the American citizenry. Can't you see what a futile and pointless gesture that is?

1) It doesn't matter how stupid "I hate swords" sounds to you as a person just barely born before the turn of the millenium. Until the gun and subspace were invented, the sword was how people dueled and how battles were fought. There is a reason why the phrase goes "The pen is mightier than the sword" rather than "The pen is mightier than the gun". Assuming that hatred for instruments of death is a phenomena characteristic only of the period following the invention of the gun is pure ignorance.
2) It doesn't think, feel, or react in any way shape or form but it does kill-which is way more than 90% of the human population could do with their bare hands. I think that fact makes the gun worth some reverence - be it negative or positive.
3) Their peaceful law abiding purpose is pale in comparison to their destructive and immoral (assuming we can reach some common ground to say that killing of another human being is immoral at least as some level) purposes.
4) Many variables contribute to crime. The existence of poverty will virtually guarantee the existence of crime forever. Taking away crime's ability to make swift judgements about others' lives is far more effective than attempting to cut down crime on an individual level because that is the only real futile thing in this argument.
5) Your hinting at 5th Amendment rights leads me to assume your next post will follow course with this argument. Yes the Constitution of the United States of America grants the right to its citizens to bear arms. I am not going to argue the 5th Amendment because I probably agree with you on this point. As long as the government has guns I'll be goddamned if I'm not going to be allowed to. That would be asking for a leap of faith I am no where near ready to jump in favor of government. Still, our society would be much better off were guns eliminated totally.

[Squeezer]

You Americans aren't very smart

take that back.

[Troll King]

Was a nice try though, TK. Nice enough for me to say that in any past posts if I've said that I hated the leviathan it was meant as a shortcut to mean the reasons above, and would have been a mistake completely on my part to shorten it that way.

Actually, that was exactly the response I wanted. When BZ said that he hated guns, he likely meant something along the same lines. In any case, I think the example of people saying that they hate levis to be a more realistic comparison than people saying that they hate swords.

[Sarien]

Law abiding citizens buy guns for one of two reasons: Relaxation or Self-Defense. Hunting falls under relaxation, even when it's for food. Yes, I know people that hunt for food, to live. Not just for the joy of it.
Criminal citizens buy a gun to use in furtherence of their crime simply to have the power edge over their victims. It could be a crossbow, a rock, a knife or anything as long as they believe it will give them the edge in committing their intended crime.

You can think that self-defense is a poor argument but it isn't. What statistics? Please show me statistics if you're going to bring them up. Here are facts. Two years ago there was a prowler outside my house. The average response time where I live to a 911 call is anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. That night when I called, nobody bothered to show up at all. The guy didn't break in, but I spent a very tense night awake with the phone in one hand, a weapon in the other, and waiting for the goddamn police to show. They didn't. It was the next afternoon after a few calls that they could be assed to come out and take a report.

As an adult, and a man, I'm not going to have to depend on some jackass doing their job, for my personal safety again. Not gonna happen. You could remove all guns, but the knowledge to make them would remain, and people would make them. Criminals would smuggle them through the borders (care to take a look at drugs for an example of that?) and they would have them, and the law abiding citizen would not. In other words, the exact scenario a criminal would love to see, since it would virtually assure his edge in the commission of a crime.

1) The pen is mightier than the sword. I agree, it is if used correctly. Assuming that the mentioned expression is a hatred of an instrument of death rather than an expression of non lethal power, is ignorance. It is lunacy to hate instruments of destruction when you stack it next to the minds and the peoples that choose to wield these in such a manner. That very same expression proves it. "The pen is mightier than the sword." meaning that for a person of thought they have their own tools and abilities to exercise their will upon those who may have strong arms. It doesn't say destroy the swords, they are evil. It says use the abilities you have to overcome those with swords.

2) It doesn't kill of its own accord. It must be used. That's why guns aren't charged with murder. The people committing the murders are charged with murder. That's why you say "Soandso used a gun to kill that guy." not "Soandso had a gun, and it killed that guy." A lot more than 90% of the human race could kill with their bare hands were the circumstances correct. Add an implement even as simple as a fucking rock, and it just gets easier all the time.

3) Immoral. Crimes I can see as immoral. Murder I can see as immoral. Self-defense, no, not so much. Would I rather kill someone, or watch as my mother, my girl, or my sisters, or anybody I care, were themselves were murdered? I wonder. Defending your safety, or the safety of another is hardly immoral. It is in fact the highest calling a person can be called upon to undertake. If you call killing period immoral, is that for people only, or animals too?

4) Really? Well.. I'm glad you're a super genius and understand everything, because since attempting to cut down on crime at an individual level is what the entire prison system is all about. Rather than dealing with the individuals that commit crimes, we should simply take their tools, and turn them loose? Dealing with crime at an individual level is the only way to deal with crime. That is what the entire system of justice is all about. An individual stands trial for the choices he or she makes, and is then punished for it, if found guilty of committing the crime. Imagine that.

5) Guns cannot be eliminated. Period. Not now, not ever. It's like saying we need to eliminate the electric light bulb. It's too late, it's here. It's been invented and that's that.

[Sarien]

Actually, that was exactly the response I wanted. When BZ said that he hated guns, he likely meant something along the same lines. In any case, I think the example of people saying that they hate levis to be a more realistic comparison than people saying that they hate swords.

And if you read my response to BZ, then you'll see all I asked for was some clarification on that.

Why do they freak you out? That seems kind of strange BZ. Have you had much exposure to using or learning one?

But hating guns, an inanimate object, is irrational. If the actions of some people who use guns, swords, weapons, pipes, etc in a destructive way freak you out, sure.

See? I'd already thought of that.