Religion and Other Things

[Troll King]

Free will does not mean that there won't be any consequences; free will is the ability to choose in light of the consequences. If you are fully aware of what will happen and decide to do it anyway, that's still free will; you still made the decision even if it means you get punished for it. If you know that you'd go to Hell if you did something and you decide to do it anyway, that's not an example of God's hypocrisy; I'd say that's actually the best possible example of free will.

As for the argument that free will is the work of the Devil and that it "makes you" break the rules, then that's a contradiction right there. If it's free will, then it doesn't "make" you break or obey anything. Free will also doesn't imply that people would choose the option that breaks the rules. It works both ways.

[CrvenBan]

Free will does not mean that there won't be any consequences; free will is the ability to choose in light of the consequences. If you are fully aware of what will happen and decide to do it anyway, that's still free will; you still made the decision even if it means you get punished for it. If you know that you'd go to Hell if you did something and you decide to do it anyway, that's not an example of God's hypocrisy; I'd say that's actually the best possible example of free will.

That is the point, there shouldn't have been any consequences because they are restriction to free will. Isn't every soul's ultimate desire to come into heaven and bathe in Gods light and love ? And God's desire to have all his little souls, his children in his arms ? Then why the contradiction, either no free will and bunch of rules, or just free will and no rules. What is the God's plan, weeding out the bad little children (for eternity on account of 60+ years) ? One would think that the divine Creator of worlds would be above those petty things.

As for the argument that free will is the work of the Devil and that it "makes you" break the rules, then that's a contradiction right there. If it's free will, then it doesn't "make" you do break or obey. Free will also doesn't imply that people would choose the option that breaks the rules. It works both ways.

Oh sorry, I didn't mean it makes you (forces) to break rules, just that the only use for it is when you wanna jump that fence and play on the freeway. Favorable, non-consequential choices are "made by default", so the free will is kinda there when you want to fuck up your afterlife.
It just seems so sadistic and not Godlike (which strenghtens my theory about it being a gift from Devil), because you are given a body, a sexual drive, a ton of teasers, a free will, BUT you must not screw untill you're married. That's one misanthropic God right there.

Kinda best way is to be agnostic, believe in God, but not in religions.

[Troll King]

That is the point, there shouldn't have been any consequences because they are restriction to free will. Isn't every soul's ultimate desire to come into heaven and bathe in Gods light and love ? And God's desire to have all his little souls, his children in his arms ? Then why the contradiction, either no free will and bunch of rules, or just free will and no rules. What is the God's plan, weeding out the bad little children (for eternity on account of 60+ years) ? One would think that the divine Creator of worlds would be above those petty things.

Oh sorry, I didn't mean it makes you (forces) to break rules, just that the only use for it is when you wanna jump that fence and play on the freeway. Favorable, non-consequential choices are "made by default", so the free will is kinda there when you want to fuck up your afterlife.
It just seems so sadistic and not Godlike (which strenghtens my theory about it being a gift from Devil), because you are given a body, a sexual drive, a ton of teasers, a free will, BUT you must not screw untill you're married. That's one misanthropic God right there.

Kinda best way is to be agnostic, believe in God, but not in religions.

Again, there are a couple of holes in your logic. You relied on the question "Isn't every soul's ultimate desire to come into heaven and bathe in Gods light and love" and the answer of "yes", but my point is that the answer is in fact "no". If everyone were to answer "yes" then that isn't free will at all. My point is that the "weeding out" process, as you put it, is the actual work of free will.

As for the second part you wrote, there's another hole in your logic. You operate under the assumption that there's a default option and free will means that you get to choose to go off the default option. I'm saying that there is no such thing as a "default", as every single event, every individual decision, every single junction you approach, you get to choose which option to go in. There's no such thing as a "default" because each of these junctions is different and unique; if you go one way the first time, you can go the other way if the choice were offered again. There's no blanket default setting. If you unleash your dog in the park, he won't necessarily run away and into a busy street. He could just as well just curl up under a shady tree.

Your definition of "free will" seems to be "the selection of an option that God doesn't want you to choose". I don't agree with that because you're applying that definition in relation to God; you're not actually making choices in that scenario, you're letting Him choose and then you go in the opposite direction. You're trying to prove that free will isn't free, but you're doing so by first making the assumption that it isn't free. There's only a contradition because you set it up from the start. I'm saying that free will is the opportunity to make those decisions yourself, not because it's what He does or does not want you to do, but because you get to make the choice based on the consequences.

[SpiderMage]

I think free will is perhaps more like a situation like this...

You are walking down a cave and the tunnel comes to a fork, one left, one right. Left fork is full of light and seems like it will lead you out, the right fork looks almost like the tunnel you are in, no extra light and no smell. God, in his word, has filled you in on the fact that, the right path is the better one to choose, however, the left side, with the light(temptation/distraction), is drawing your attention. It's up to you to choose if you follow God's advice, or not use his advice and go the other way.

'm looking to God as a guide, if there are things that 'm uncertain of, I believe he will help me find the answer, and I have been finding answers from some of the people here, or at least some form of common opinion and thus I don't feel so torn on it. God in the Bible has laid down directions to Heaven, how to get there, what you'll need to do, etc etc, so he's like drawn you the best route from point A to point B, though I don't think he'll repremand you for stopping at McDonald's along the way.

[CrvenBan]

Again, there are a couple of holes in your logic. You relied on the question "Isn't every soul's ultimate desire to come into heaven and bathe in Gods light and love" and the answer of "yes", but my point is that the answer is in fact "no". If everyone were to answer "yes" then that isn't free will at all. My point is that the "weeding out" process, as you put it, is the actual work of free will.

Seeing that none of this is written anywhere and it's just a theory, don't souls stem from heaven and going to hell is a punishment ? If that is so, where are they to go back then, if not to heaven, so it's more logical to belive that all souls want to go back than belive that they don't want to.

I'm not saying that there is a default option in free will, but looking at humans and how they functioned during centuries it is safe to draw the conclusion: the humans will do things/make choices which are benificiary to them while not being forbidden without need to reconsider, or consult the free will, because there are no consequences or punishment.
That's what I'm saying, the free will only comes into play when a human is about to make a bad decision, then he has a choice of either not doing it, or doing it and facing consequences.
Obviously the God _didn't want_ Adam to munch his apple so he said to him that he could go prance around and do whatever in the garden as long as he doesn't touch the apple. And when Adam ate it, he got axed from garden. By the way, shouldn't the Allknowing God know that Adam would eat it ?
The Devils work f0 sh0, disguised as a snake! It's a nice fit tho, the God didn't want humans in the first place, especially not ones with free will, so he made up system of rules where you get punished if you disobey. Perfect way to nullify that pesky free will and give Him a legal reason to banish souls to hell. You know, if lawyers come knock knock knockin'

Anyway, as fun as this is, we can spend years talking about and still not come anywhere, so lets sum it up

Me: Free will is not free, because if you _choose_ to do something, which turns out to be bad, you get your ass spanked and punished forever, which then leads me to asking; why make it an option in the first place ? (this with a loving God in mind, one that wants us to get to Heaven)

[3Stripes]

I don't care what you believe in, as long as you have faith in something, certainly when it comes to the afterlife... Rather that than be an atheist and believe in a dismal fate such as dying and ceasing to exist... What would be the point of living then, if you can't even see your, or anyones, accomplishments after you pass on?

this quote right here is the main reason why people gravitate toward religion and faith. most humans cannot stand the thought that their life is ultimately purposeless and moot. we must be more important than everything else. I, being an athiest believe that there is no point or ultimate reason why we are alive. we are alive none the less, so you might as well make the best of it and live your life to the fullest... i dont understand why that has to be so dismal. i dont spend my days in a depressed state because im going to die someday.

[Scoop]

hey cool your not going to hell anymore :innocent:

[RATTY...]

I don't have faith and i hate the priests that rape lil kids. I hope they all burn in hell.

Cause some fucked up priest in america did that, doesn't mean they do it everywhere. Stupid, ignorant comment.

[Theif of Time]

Thats just demon girl, the resident goth. Don't mind her

[Tone]

its because christians dont care about ethics or morals. they just take something they made up with no logical and call it morals, even though it has nothing to do with suffering or wellness.

[Theif of Time]

I'm sure people could repute you.

BTW, seeing as you know there are christians here and I'm sure you know they'll take offence, isn't that trolling?

[Troll King]

Really? I thought he was saying it in envious admiration; a shining example of what he himself tries to do.

[Stylez]

What I love is how you all can debate on this subject, but most of you have yet to even read the thing you're debating on...

You can only base judgment from your perspective, you can't base it on someone else's, certainly when you have no clue where their really coming from...

I've read the bible, I use to be athiest, I've studied into evolution and other theories, but I wont speak on them as if I know everything... And I will never tell a person of another faith that they're right or wrong, because really, I, nor you, really just don't know, all anyone can do is put faith into something and hope...

If you want to base your life on your own opinions of different findings, so be it... I found that I have a better chance to have faith in something like the bible rather than my own gathered judgments of certain things... Your opinions are needed in the world, but they aren't always right...

And to believe is to see and to have faith is to have heart, remember that... Sort of like what the movie Dogma was getting at, though I'm a firm believer in the church being set anywhere (like your home or in a green pasture) and not necessarily in a stained glass, towering castle...

Everyone nowadays is trying to make an excuss not to do this or that, well, what if... What if, you're wrong, ever read up on the consequence? Do you think you're man or woman enough to face them? All I ask anyone to do is read the bible for themselves and stop speculating on it and making false claims...

[Kolar]

Everyone will always have their OWN opinion Stylez. How educated, how involved IE. having an agenda will always be the factors. There are few trueism in this world. When I say you're wrong it means I my self in my opinion think you're wrong. Now if there's proof to back that up them it's true if the theories and ideas have been proven true. Believe what you want, I just hope it makes you happy sometimes. I will never be part of a religion ever myself because none of them are passive when it comes to politics and social issues concerning technology ect...

To belive in consequences beyond this life for living it in any specific way by all logic and science seems far out there to me. To believe in that consequence seems detrimental both mentally and physically. There really is no real way covince people to believe what you want, it's faith with an unbelieviable story. Fear seems to work best though. It's not logical, it's not simple and it's not real to me. I'd rather form my own opinions about this universe, even if I am wrong and God can be a part of it. You should get the movie What the Bleep Do We Know? it will explain it better.

[Stylez]

Everyone will always have their OWN opinion Stylez. How educated, how involved IE. having an agenda will always be the factors. There are few trueism in this world. When I say you're wrong it means I my self in my opinion think you're wrong. Now if there's proof to back that up them it's true if the theories and ideas have been proven true. Believe what you want, I just hope it makes you happy sometimes. I will never be part of a religion ever myself because none of them are passive when it comes to politics and social issues concerning technology ect...

That's just it... You can have your opinion, but what I'm getting at is, don't base it towards others, when you have nothing to show for it, other than your own word... Ok, I can have faith in christianity because of the bible, why do you have faith in yours? What conclusive evidence gave you your ideas? I'm just wondering...

I'm a very open minded person, but I'm also very sensible, enlighten me...

To belive in consequences beyond this life for living it in any specific way by all logic and science seems far out there to me. To believe in that consequence seems detrimental both mentally and physically. There really is no real way covince people to believe what you want, it's faith with an unbelieviable story. Fear seems to work best though. It's not logical, it's not simple and it's not real to me. I'd rather form my own opinions about this universe, even if I am wrong and God can be a part of it. You should get the movie What the Bleep Do We Know? it will explain it better.

Well, what else do you have to put on the table to make me believe otherwise? You have but your word that your enforcing on others, well ok, not enforcing, but acknowledging towards others, but without any sources that back up your opinions... Basically your word is now nullified, not just by me, but anyone you might be trying to convince, if that was even your motive... People don't want to hear others opinions, they want facts... I'm asking you to prove to me why I should listen to you and not to believe or have faith in something that has been studied into for countless years...

I understand your feelings, trust me, I better than anyone... But, all I can say is, what will it hurt to read the bible for yourself? What will it hurt to have an actual religion, that's been going on for generations now; to lean back on? Do you want to risk eternity because of your own stubbornness? Once you're gone and have to face judgment, you will not be pitied upon, know this...

Do you know who C. S. Lewis is? He's a British writer and critic... His works include The Allegory of Love and a series of fictional books for children collectively known as The Chronicles of Narnia... Well, he was atheist once, he even set forth to prove christianity false... But he came out becoming a devote Christian himself... I was the same way, I read the bible for myself and everything I use to say was just put down the drain... The bible makes so much sense once you actually open it up and read it word for word... Trust me, you'll be amazed...