Hurricane in context

[Jerome Scuggs]

Jerome, your question pretty much explains itself on wikipedia. I'm not from France or Italy (nor have I ever been there) so I can't really even try to explain why thousands of people died because of heat. Except that...heat waves "DO NOT EXIST" in france! It's almost as saying that Bush is a smart man :/

If I remember correctly, there had happened something in France, so that it was almost impossible to get clean water or something anywhere. All the water from the stores were already hamstered...can't remember what it was though.

Well you still have a few more countries to account for Scientists still foresaw the waves though, and Fr**ce still sat on their ass. But you say something happened that made it impossible to get fresh water...in a ocean-bordering country that big, it was hard to get water? Shit, the place wasn't even flooded and tied up with beauracracy and red tape.

Anyways, part II of my dad's dinnertable prophecy has also come true, people are starting to calm down and really see what's happening. (Exhibit A, Exhibit B)

[Blanke]

Hmm

Here you go.

Here's an unbiased (at least from what i can interpret from a quick read) overview of some of the aspects of Katrina.

http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html

[pv=nrt]

yeah mayor nagin for failing completely to protect your city!

[Money]

This weekend im going over to the Astrodome and volunteering, you have to do a 10 hour shift. and im sure i can sell some weed to the mallates outside.

[Money]

yeah mayor nagin for failing completely to protect your city!

the MAIN reason the national guard was brought in was to stop the ppl from shooting at the rescue choppers. thats a fact. and second is the looting

[Ephemeral]

Eph, you seem to be defending the government quite readily in your post. Not only do you chide the victims for their own carelessness in not leaving, you also readily praise the government for it's fast response.

The problem is your arguments are really defeatist and it's that line of thinking that is the problem.
The fact is Eph, the government really dropped the bomb from all levels except perhaps for the mayor of New Orleans with his very limited resources due to a completely ruined city. They knew that something like this was going to happen (they had contingency plans for this type of deal with levees breaking and all) two days before the hurricane actually struck New Orleans. And then it took another 4 days for any meaningful help to actually come when there were ample military and national guard supplies near the vincinity to help... just that no one actually told them to do it.

Again I don't think comparing this to past disasters and saying 'it was bad last time, so it being bad this time is okay' is a good thing to say. You should learn from your past mistakes not repeat them over and over, and to blindly say that the government did the 'best it could' when it very obviously did not is basically allowing the government to be lax after this event so that the next time this happens a similar tragedy will occur again.

Epi,
Respectfully disagree. If now is the time to play the 'blame game' (and I am not sure that it is), then it is a question of how this game is played.
At all levels for this kind of issue, I choose to look at it from the bottom up, rather from the top down.
First square in this responsibility game is the private citizen. The next square is the citizen's personal support system. The next square is the local resources, then the state resources, then federal resources.
Let’s move from the responsibility perspective and consider a requirements perspective. Would anyone say that the best way to determine what the requirements are (types of support, types of aid) should be considered from the top down? That some guy sitting in Washington should be the one who determines what types of aid and support are needed on the ground 1500 miles away? I think most people would agree that the ‘needs’ are best driven from the bottom upwards.
If this is true, why should the responsibilities not be viewed the same way? The first responsibility should be each of us have for ourselves and our families. Putting selfish reasons ahead of the rest of society (staying when you have been asked to leave) transfers the burden to rescue workers who have to risk their lives for what? Your selfish decision?

Preparation is a responsibility that works the same way. First, each person should be responsible enough to make provisions for themselves and their families if they live in a high risk area. Next level of preparation responsibility is the local level. Then state, then federal.

So when thinking about corrective actions, I consider them from the bottom upwards. And yes, there is a good chance that some corrective actions could and should be made at the federal levels. But as my first post states, I am disturbed that the media only seems to be focusing on a ‘top down’ view without even mentioning the other levels of responsibility. So IMHO, asking about the responsibilities of the individual, of their support system, of the local and state resources should is as valid, if not more, than standing around and being critical the federal government. I was not defending them, I said nothing about thier performance.
eph

PS And I would question those who seem to be using this tragedy as a political football. That is about as sad as it gets.

[Ephemeral]

Ephemeral i was trying to show you that you were giving to much importance to money in your posts at this thread... i didnt went after the words, those 2 words got stuck in my mind after i read your thread... -_-
Im just trying to show you that maybe you guys got your priorities wrongh on the Katrina issue, unfortunatelly

I will offer this one piece of advice for you, something that took me a long time to learn in life. Making assumptions is one of the quickest ways to get into trouble.

Please consider this human behavior ‘cycle’. There are 4 elements in any situation, 2 of them can be seen (external), 2 of them can not be seen (internal). The 4 elements are;
Situation -> Response -> Thoughts -> Motivation

Now think about any kind of scene with yourself and another person. You see their response to the scene or situation. You assume what the other person’s thoughts and motivations are. Depending on how well you know them, you might guess correctly and everything works out ok.
But consider how often we are all wrong at this guessing game (especially with internet relationships). It is not an exaggeration to say that wars have been started over when countries make assumptions about other countries. Think how many times friendships, marriages, business relationships have been broken up due to making theses kinds of assumptions.

Rather than make assumptions, it is always better to simply communicate and ask direct questions like, ‘what are your thinking’ and ‘why do you feel this way’.

[Krusnik]

1b) The fact is, while the experts have constantly warned about the levees being insufficient, no one did anything about it. There were plenty of people I'm sure who didn't equate a hurricane with the levees bursting and having 80% of the city being flooded with water. Remember, these people survived the hurricane itself, they found places to shelter against the initial rain and wind, it's the flooding that got them. Chiding them about staying is pretty stupid considering it's not hard to see why they thought they would be safe if they could just ride out the storm. Note that this doens't excuse the government's late response because FEMA definately had drills and contingency plans for this exact type of incident in it's past.

The Clinton administration set aside some money for making the levi's in New Orleans stronger. Later they chose not to do it, because they thought the levi's were fine as they were. The Bush Administration took that money, and used it for the Iraq war. Just thought I would add to it.

[Tone]

this is a Bullshit thread pretending to be a 'balanced context' or some shit like that. heres your context. now i have to go make the thread where concrete will appologize to me or i fuckin walk!

FEMA won´t accept Amtrak´s help in evacuations <http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c8.html>

FEMA turns away experienced firefighters <http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048>

FEMA turns back Wal-Mart supply trucks <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei= 5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss>

FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei= 5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss>

FEMA won´t let Red Cross deliver food <http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm>

FEMA bars morticians from entering New Orleans <http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id= 68561&rfi=6>

FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid <http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826>

FEMA fails to utilize Navy ship with 600-bed hospital on board <http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144825.story?ctrack=1&cset=true >

FEMA to Chicago: Send just one truck <http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed>

FEMA turns away generators <http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html>

FEMA: "First Responders Urged Not To Respond" <http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470>

[Lucon]

Tone!

[Pandagirl!]

Nooooooo he's back!

[pv=nrt]

the MAIN reason the national guard was brought in was to stop the ppl from shooting at the rescue choppers. thats a fact. and second is the looting

I was referring to an inept mayor not helping his city evacuate, and then blaming everyone but himself for the situation. I could go on and on about how many bad decisions this guy has made in the last week. Maybe he was just too stressed and I am having a case of hindsight, but as a mayor in my view he blows.

[Ephemeral]

I guess my point couldn't have been any stronger than to have Tone post.

[Krusnik]

I almost freaken cried, when I saw his post.