I'd Hate to be a Muslim

[Riesen]

Cause Timothy Mcveigh was a muslim, right?

I don't know/care if someone already mentioned this, but McVeigh didn't blow up the building as a religious statement. He did it because the government was slowly taking away our civil liberties and no one seemed to care. Most of this was brought on by the incident in Waco where Janet Reno ordered the ATF to break down the walls of David Koresh's compound without a warrant or just cause (illegal search and seizure), even though Koresh had previously invited the government in to do a search and take a gander at what was going on. There are a few other reasons, but that's the main one, he felt the government was gaining too much power. And when you give the government power, it will use it.

You should read a book called "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace" by Gore Vidal. He talks about this event in there and actually adds in excerpts from personal letters McVeigh wrote to him while in prison. It's a pretty interesting book, and it isn't very long, still no pictures though .

[3Stripes]

hate all this PC crap. no militant group in existence today is as frequently threatening and violent as the multitude of groups under the umbrella of islamic extremism. while its certainly overkill to make a statement that christians, jews, etc, never blow anything up, the point is still valid that the majority of things being blown up these days are being blown up by "muslims" (or the US government).

particularly amusing is their frequent cries of american and zionist imperialism, when in fact one of the oft stated missions of these organizations is to convert the entire world (or atleast their local piece of it) to an islamic theocracy, by force if necessary.

but of course, the "true" muslims claim that islam is a peaceful religion and that is just fringe extremists who are giving them a bad name. when you read newspaper articles about imams calling for the execution of cartoonists who have insulted their religion to a congregation of 9,000 worshippers, and massive crowds of seemingly everyday muslim people chanting that Denmark must be blown up, this becomes increasingly difficult to believe. just how big is this "fringe" group of violent muslims? it goes without saying that not all muslims are violent people, but i think its very clear that the number of them that either encourage or condone violence in the name of islam has grown far beyond the number normally attributed to the term "extremist". muslims that condone violent actions by terrorists just aren't very extreme these days.

[genocidal]

Think about it. If China had military occupation of the Americas and was telling the US what to do of course it'd piss us off. Probably we would resort to "terrorism" under the guise of patriotism (it's been done here before) against the occupier. And then, what if China started printing offensive cartoons that depicted Jesus as a terrorist.

I can understand why the majority of the Islamic community were perturbed at the depictions made, but the fact is they're not all blowing stuff up or calling for it. They can protest, just like what happens in other countries, but they have a little bit more to be mad about than us. Hell, even an overwhelming majority of people in the Middle East support democracy and wish they had it.

[D1st0rt]

Both Religions (Christianity and Islam) preach nonviolence and being nice to everybody. I'm extremely embarrassed by a certain percentage of the Christian population that goes around bombing abortion clinics "in the name of God" or other retarted and hypocritical shit like that, it makes all Christians look bad. In the same way, these radical Muslims are making the rest of the (good) people of Islam look bad and they are probably likewise disgusted.

[3Stripes]

Think about it. If China had military occupation of the Americas and was telling the US what to do of course it'd piss us off. Probably we would resort to "terrorism" under the guise of patriotism (it's been done here before) against the occupier.

Think about this: If an islamic theocracy had the power of the United States, your mom would be wearing a burka by next Februrary. What is disturbing about the islamic world is not the defense of it's homeland, but their intolerance for other cultures and their lack of reservations about using violence to destroy non-islamic cultures and spread their own. It may be the extremists that carry out the violent acts, but is a condoning culture of fairly ordinary muslims that support them and create heroes of murderers. If 50 dutch citizens tried to walk through palestine today, what do you think would happen to them? They'd die because of their free press, which they have no control over. The topic of this thread should instead be: "ID RATHER BE A MUSLIM IN AMERICA THAN AN AMERICAN IN THE MIDDLE EAST."

[3Stripes]

Both Religions (Christianity and Islam) preach nonviolence and being nice to everybody. I'm extremely embarrassed by a certain percentage of the Christian population that goes around bombing abortion clinics "in the name of God" or other retarted and hypocritical shit like that, it makes all Christians look bad. In the same way, these radical Muslims are making the rest of the (good) people of Islam look bad and they are probably likewise disgusted.

As I said, its a question of numbers. The number of Christians that agree with the bombing of abortion clinics and the murder of those doctors is extremely small. Thereby warranting the "extremist" label attached to them. Muslims that agree that the dutch cartoonists should be beheaded for their drawings are far too mainstream to make such a comparison. This violent position is being openly taken by more than one well respected and largely followed religious leaders in the middle east. They may be in the minority, but they certainly aren't a fringe extremist opinion. Militant islam is a significant political force in islam and is condoned by far too many to be labeled extremist.

[genocidal]

Think about this: If an islamic theocracy had the power of the United States, your mom would be wearing a burka by next Februrary. What is disturbing about the islamic world is not the defense of it's homeland, but their intolerance for other cultures and their lack of reservations about using violence to destroy non-islamic cultures and spread their own. It may be the extremists that carry out the violent acts, but is a condoning culture of fairly ordinary muslims that support them and create heroes of murderers. If 50 dutch citizens tried to walk through palestine today, what do you think would happen to them? They'd die because of their free press, which they have no control over. The topic of this thread should instead be: "ID RATHER BE A MUSLIM IN AMERICA THAN AN AMERICAN IN THE MIDDLE EAST."

How about the United States's lack of tolerance for other cultures? I mean talk about spreading something, think about all the military governments the United States set up, all the democratically elected governments they fucked up (yes you, Nicaragua), and all the selective and racist treatment of Western nations as opposed to Middle Eastern ones (with the very recent exception of India to an extent, only because they're rich and have a real nuclear threat now).

[3Stripes]

How about the United States's lack of tolerance for other cultures? I mean talk about spreading something, think about all the military governments the United States set up, all the democratically elected governments they fucked up (yes you, Nicaragua), and all the selective and racist treatment of Western nations as opposed to Middle Eastern ones (with the very recent exception of India to an extent, only because they're rich and have a real nuclear threat now).

EXACTLY! The US Gov't (especially the current one) is fucked. I TOTALLY AGREE. So are a large number of americans who live in red states and support it and the war. You bringing up this fact does not change the other fact (that a significant segment of the Islamic world is even more fucked.) I'm just tired of people who can't see both sides. Its become PC to denounce the idiocy of the US (despite the fact that we are all individuals here with our own opinoins), so why not the idiocy of hundreds of thousands of people who believe that cartoonists should be beheaded.

[3Stripes]

i just realized im making similar arguments to centurion in the other thread so ill just shut up now...this argument has already been done.

looks like cent got jumped on for the use of "majority" in his criticisms of islam. glad i didnt make that mistake. ill just add one thing to the other thread's argument: just because your muslim buddies in canada are all cool, nice, non-violent, educated people, doesn't mean that they are representative of the entire group. like the US, islam has MAJOR issues to resolve, and they won't be able to until

#1 people stop acting like they are poor victims who are just resisting the tyranny of western governments.

#2 they get their heads out of their asses and quell the fundamentalism.

[Colossos]

For me, their reasons for fighting are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that they are fighting.

And as such, until they learn to stop this fundamentalist crap, and solve their issues through diplomacy and talking, there's going to continue to be this anti-muslim sentiment. That's all there is to it.

I understand that i've simplified this post down loads, and it's more complicated, but this is all i can be arsed to type.

[Vykromond]

but fundamentalist muslims are resisting what they perceive as the tyranny of the western world, especially its governments. the modern state of israel was created through british fiat. american cultural hegemony threatens every value held by traditionalist muslims (and in this respect, these fundamentalists aren't so different from our localized chicken littles o'reilly, robertson, et al)

both the methods and goals are wrong. the vast majority of people do not deny this (and all your hand-wringing about "PC" is just a straw man). but- to claim that the motivation isn't there or isn't valid from their perspective is to deny the reasons why the situation is... what it is.

[Doc Flabby]

I LIKE MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH

if i wanna call jesus a cockshit
or print a cartoon of muhammad with a bomb under his hat
or call budda a chain smoking ganje monkey
or say that athists are all fucking retards
or call [insert religion/faith/race/hair color/weight] [insert correct offensive insult]

I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO IT.

Of course its fucking offensive. Thats the point. The whole point of free speach is to allow people to express opinions we hate or think are wrong. IF PEOPLE JUST SAID THINGS WE LIKE AND ARE UNOFFENSIVE WE WOULDNT NEED FREE SPEECH.

If people dont like our country's laws on free speech they should move to a country more suited to there requirements like iran or china.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Trying to read the above two posts side by side is a prime example of what makes me chuckle about these forums.

[Ephemeral]

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

[T3l Ca7]

Beauty is in the eyes of its beholder, and being smart is relative.

Insulting other people's gods is a terrible thing to do, but if someone can not handle the idea that someone else holds a different view, then it is his/her own fault.