You were wrong you fat fuck Michael Moore

[Fit of Rage]

I've actually come fully around on gun control. I'm one of those "die-hard liberal socialist bastards" but I think the Second Amendment is extremely important. I think allowing any citizen to possess a gun breaks up the state's monopoly on violence (I know I'm corrupting Weber's term beyond belief here but the words themselves are the best ones available & it should still be clear what I mean), which is A Good Thing should the state need to be overthrown. The possibility of effective mass violent revolution as a counterbalance to supreme power concentrated in the state or the military is an important social tension IMHO and implementing extremely strict, government-controlled anti-gun possession measures disrupts that balance.

That was kind of vague and heady, did it make sense? It's something I'm still parsing since until recently I was for stringent gun control without really pondering it too much.

The Federalist Papers have a good deal to say on that subject and I agree with you.

[Spider]

Did I already mention you're all fucking nuts? Your entire premise is basically retarded. Uhhhhm. I wish I didn't have an essay over due I'd much rather discuss this overthrowing the government thing. roflmao?

Oh yesterday in the break room at work I read that you have viewing chambers for victims families in your, uhh, rooms where you carry out death sentences, whatever you call that place.

Wow.

Funny thing you don't get along better with the Islamic extremests you're fighting a war without end against. You have a lot in common.

[Liquid Blue]

It'd be alot easier for you to have a conversation about that if you made a separate topic for it, instead of trying to derail this one.

[genocidal]

Did I already mention you're all fucking nuts? Your entire premise is basically retarded. Uhhhhm. I wish I didn't have an essay over due I'd much rather discuss this overthrowing the government thing. roflmao?

Oh yesterday in the break room at work I read that you have viewing chambers for victims families in your, uhh, rooms where you carry out death sentences, whatever you call that place.

Wow.

Funny thing you don't get along better with the Islamic extremests you're fighting a war without end against. You have a lot in common.

I did not think you were this stupid.

Since you don't make any actual arguments I just wanted to quote this for future reference concerning your silly likening of death penalties (nothing to do with guns) to Islamic extremism. You Canadians are kings of false analogies and poor logic (drunk driving = owning a gun, etc.). Is that what those commies teach in school up there or is it a product of the latitude?

[Liquid Blue]

Again, let him save it for another topic. You've come up with a good subject to go into further, no need to distract from it with more Anti-American babble.

[tugs]

LB, i agree with what you said about communication. what you propose is a good change to school systems (a good change in general). i don't think that will solve all of the problems, but it will help people cope better with their problems.

i think it's worth saying that there should be many more changes than that. i find it crazy that it should take murder before people will even think of changing a public system (and in this case, for many people, it will obviously take much more than that)


one thing i'd like to comment on though is that you would target suburban teenagers. while i'm not sure about the particulars in all of these incidents, i would say that there are problems with schools all over, not just in suburbs or cities. i grew up in a town of around 3000 people, and while i didn't go around shooting people, i did feel that something was desperately wrong there.

[Facetious]

I actually went to a gun show over the weekend, it's frightening how easy it is to obtain a gun. That needs to change, in my opinion. It's far too easy for criminals to legally obtain guns.

To the people that want to eliminate guns in this country, the problem is that our country is far past the point of no return. If you asked everyone to turn in their guns, the only people that would even consider doing that are the people who would never harm anyone with their guns in the first place. So to these folks that are criticizing us, what precisely would you suggest we do?

You asked about video games in the beginning of the thread. I certainly don't think the violence in video games affects anything, but the ability to have a good time sitting by yourself playing XBOX, while "fulfilling" social needs online certainly contributes to these kids feeling alienated from their real peers at school.

[Liquid Blue]

LB, i agree with what you said about communication. what you propose is a good change to school systems (a good change in general). i don't think that will solve all of the problems, but it will help people cope better with their problems.

i think it's worth saying that there should be many more changes than that. i find it crazy that it should take murder before people will even think of changing a public system (and in this case, for many people, it will obviously take much more than that)


one thing i'd like to comment on though is that you would target suburban teenagers. while i'm not sure about the particulars in all of these incidents, i would say that there are problems with schools all over, not just in suburbs or cities. i grew up in a town of around 3000 people, and while i didn't go around shooting people, i did feel that something was desperately wrong there.

You're right, schools all over need to be worked on. I just think that it should start with suburban kids, since they have the highest amount going straight for guns and violence. It is a shame that it takes extreme measures to change society.

To the people that want to eliminate guns in this country, the problem is that our country is far past the point of no return. If you asked everyone to turn in their guns, the only people that would even consider doing that are the people who would never harm anyone with their guns in the first place. So to these folks that are criticizing us, what precisely would you suggest we do?

Hmm, I'm not so sure that they would freely give up their guns like that. Most people that own them either have them as a hobby or means to protect themselves. Both reasons would leave them unwilling (IMO) to freely give up their guns.

[Pummel]

hm

Fuck load more gun deaths in the USA than anywhere else, there's been a thread like this before and someone just posted the gun deaths per year in each country and the guy shut the fuck up.

[Mantra-Slider]

hmm so reaver you think that in every country where they dont have a free gun market the government is gonna take over? or is this an american phenomenon only?

[Facetious]

I wasn't saying that very many people would give up their guns if guns were made illegal. My point was that all of the very few people that would give theirs up would be responsible citizens who would never harm anyone with their guns.

[Dabram]

it's true mantra, my communist fascist european government is totally supressing me in my rights and freedom, if i was allowed to carry around a gun i could shoot at them and protect my freedom.. but now i have to live in this totalitarian state..

wait no. without being allowed to own a gun i still feel secure in my country plus i still have to ability to protest when i feel like and i have the right to vote..? wtf, how?

did i mention yet that when i vote my vote even gets counted?

wow! how is that possible without owning an AK47? i don't get it either.

edit: btw, i agree with face, it's unthinkable that the american citizens would accept giving up their rights to bear arms..
anyway what i meant to say is.. i disagree having the rights to bear arms have brougth the american citizens more 'freedom' or more safety..
i'm not sure what most mean with 'freedom', but i'm guessing the lack of a serious influence from socialism/communism in politics. if so i find having a two party system, the lacking of a homogenous population and not having fought the WO I or WO II on your own ground, thus not having the devistation of it, far more convincing reasons..

[Sarien]

hmm so reaver you think that in every country where they dont have a free gun market the government is gonna take over? or is this an american phenomenon only?

No, It's an historical phenomenon that when you have a totalitarian regime, among their first actions is to disarm the group of peoples they consider to be their "enemies." But I guess a little thing like history shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of people feeling uncomfortable, right?

And to the people like Hero, who so blatantly post things like:

americans were brought up one way, and the rotw was brought up another, right way. deal with it everyone!

That attitude takes a real willingness to be dense. It's not like you could innocently be that offensive and dumb, you have to go about it purposely.


The thing that most bothers me about people that want to ban guns, is that they are so fucking blind to the simple fact that they want to live a certain way, and so they feel like they get to enforce it on everyone else. It's the exact same as the rabid religionists that believe their religion dogma should be made into laws. You can make all the laws you want to make, if people want to break them, they will. I don't want to live like you. Luckily I'm able, and I do so. I don't give a fuck if you like it. I don't give a good goddamn if it makes you feel "less safe". This is my life and I'm a grown up adult type person, a citizen of my country, and I like being free to make my own choices. You don't want to own a gun? Great! Don't then. Live your whole life without ever touching one if you want. Nothing like each of us being able to live and be happy in our own respective paths.

Keep your opinion if you want to have it. I can respect your beliefs as long as you're not trying to push them off onto me, and make them mine, too. For those that aren't happy with it just being their own personal choice and want to demand I follow in their lead? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

[tugs]

one other thought i just had on the subject of guns:

while travelling, i felt much safer in countries where there was a strict gun law, because i figured that if the worst happened i'd at least have a good chance if i ran. while it is possible that was just in my mind, that's the way i think, and that's the way i'd prefer the world.

[Hero*]

americans were brought up one way, and the rotw was brought up another, right way. deal with it everyone!