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How much is too much?

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  • #1

    How much is too much?

    When is the line drawn regarding the validity of information in regards to dictators and other evil people? For what do you need sources, what crimes seem too "out there" for even the worst of the worst?

    For instance, let's look at our sweet, innocent buddy Agusto Pinochet. Dictator of Chile, I won't go into details about his past but I'll wiki him for you-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochet

    He died recently but a few years ago he was charged with 35 counts of torture; mainly electrical shocks, beatings and sexual abuse.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/458990.stm


    Now, on another forum I saw someone mention in a topic about his death, how during his regime dogs were trained to rape people. I told my friend about it on AIM and he didn't believe me. Here's what I c/p to him-

    "Some forms of torture included the employment of a man with visible open syphilitic sores on his body, to rape female captives and to use on them a dog trained in sexual practices with human beings.""

    And here are his thoughts-

    "unless that comes from an a creditable site, I think someone is just saying their sick fantasy.

    I just can't see the trained dog thing, you don't need to train a dog to hump the shit out of something. "

    We talked for a bit more about it, and his main problem with it was that the comment came from a message board, and not from a credible source. He realizes that it could have happened, he just needs a credible source before he can believe something like that. Also after looking at the list, he doesn't think Pinochet raped or had that many people raped. He said the guy seems more like a "acute physical discomfort" man.

    Would you need reliable sources if you hear about something else a dictator did? How much of a moral breakdown do you think could occur in a corrupted regime? Thoughts and opinions please~
    My father in law was telling me over Thanksgiving about this amazing bartender at some bar he frequented who could shake a martini and fill it to the rim with no leftovers and he thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever seen. I then proceeded to his home bar and made four martinis in one shaker with unfamiliar glassware and a non standard shaker and did the same thing. From that moment forward I knew he had no compunction about my cock ever being in his daughter's mouth.
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  • #2
    if i were to tell him, i would've said, "I heard such and so about this and that and it's nuts"

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    • #3
      I'd research it a bit, have a look around, see if you can find that same piece of information stated somewhere else.



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      • #4
        People make up stuff all the time. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's true, but not necessarily directly because of the person. For instance, say that raping stuff actually did happen in Chile. Did Pinochet actually order it? Did he actually want things to be this way?

        It's like wondering if Abu Gharab was actually say... George Bush's idea, or just people who were stationed there went too far. For sure the blame in some way lies at the leadership, but would it be right to blame all the specifics on the man at the top?
        Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
        www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

        My anime blog:
        www.animeslice.com

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Epinephrine View Post
          It's like wondering if Abu Gharab was actually say... George Bush's idea, or just people who were stationed there went too far. For sure the blame in some way lies at the leadership, but would it be right to blame all the specifics on the man at the top?
          I don't want to make this a G Dub-hating thread, because those are tiresome, but I just couldn't let this go.

          Maybe, just maybe, Pres. Bush didn't know about things at Abu Ghraib until the scandal broke. That's a big "if," if you ask me. But anyway, supposing that he truly had no idea about the goings-on, and all fault came to rest on the people stationed there.

          It'd make me feel a lot better if the president would've then stated that torture, in any circumstance, is not the business of America. Oh, he did? Yeah, but then he also put a big asterisk behind that statment with the disclaimer that he decides where "coercion" ends and "torture" begins.

          So should Bush be considered guilty for what happened at Abu Ghraib? No. But he's surely not saying it's wrong, either. And that's what's fucked up.
          Last edited by ConcreteSchlyrd; 12-17-2006, 10:23 PM.
          Music and medicine, I'm living in a place where they overlap.

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          • #6
            He even took it one step farther by telling congress that he'd veto McCain's anti-torture bill (Though it passed in the Senate 91-8-1, and passed in the house by a large majority, though I don't know the exact numbers on that.)

            edit: Mind you, this is a president who has used his veto power a handful of times, and I believe has used it less than any other two term Pres. by a looooooong shot.
            Originally posted by Tone
            Women who smoke cigarettes are sexy, not repulsive. It depends on the number smoked. less is better

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            • #7
              Personally, I try to take in as many opinions as I can on a subject, objectively as possible. Honestly, it's something that's impossible from the start, since as Epi stated, people make stuff up all the time.

              So I guess I just make a judgement call on the source of the information, and "rank" it mentally (sort of, I guess). Obviously, some things are harder to swallow at face value (your dog-rape example is something that I'd be skeptical about) and require more research than others.

              It helps that I have a job that I can take small net excursions during the day and find out information on things I've heard about. I at least feel fairly educated about the world, although I'm sure I'd still be considered a dumb bastard by a few.

              As far as how much moral breakdown I think could occur? I dunno, maybe I'm cynical, but I guess I really don't have a limit. Things may surprise me, but in the back of my mind I understand that there are some sick, sick assholes out there who would do just about anything. And power just makes that part of people sour and fester.
              Music and medicine, I'm living in a place where they overlap.

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              • #8
                Sometimes conditions can be created whereby the sick fantasies of certain people are allowed to be played out thanks to their actions being legitimized. I mean you can easily imagine how a lot of these 'torturers' would actually be serial killers and rapists out in the 'normal world', but since they had a chance to actually play out their fantasies without reprocussions in certain times, they go to all the limits. Does this make the man at the top responsible? Ultimately yes, but it's pointless to attribute every single action to the person at the top, because along the way, each and every person below is responsible for their actions as well.

                Then again, there are times when you have perfectly 'normal' people who may do these things because they are ordered to, because the person at the top really is pulling all the strings, and hey... you gotta do what you gotta do to not get in trouble right? Hmm...
                Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
                www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

                My anime blog:
                www.animeslice.com

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                • #9
                  Where does the line draw then? What act is too sick, too out there, too "evil", even when your life is on the line? The survival instinct is one of our most powerful instincts, but would there be a point, an act where it goes from "trying to survive" to being sadistic?
                  My father in law was telling me over Thanksgiving about this amazing bartender at some bar he frequented who could shake a martini and fill it to the rim with no leftovers and he thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever seen. I then proceeded to his home bar and made four martinis in one shaker with unfamiliar glassware and a non standard shaker and did the same thing. From that moment forward I knew he had no compunction about my cock ever being in his daughter's mouth.

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                  • #10
                    If you have to kill to save your own life, that's one thing. Going beyond just killing someone is going beyond saving your own life.
                    Maybe God was the first suicide bomber and the Big Bang was his moment of Glory.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Liquid Blue View Post
                      Where does the line draw then? What act is too sick, too out there, too "evil", even when your life is on the line? The survival instinct is one of our most powerful instincts, but would there be a point, an act where it goes from "trying to survive" to being sadistic?
                      I thought your thread was about where the line was drawn in regards to believing weird stories about dictators... This new question is something else altogether.
                      Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
                      www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

                      My anime blog:
                      www.animeslice.com

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                      • #12
                        Topic evolves with the discussion, it doesn't need to stay to the initial idea, as long as productive discussion is achieved.
                        My father in law was telling me over Thanksgiving about this amazing bartender at some bar he frequented who could shake a martini and fill it to the rim with no leftovers and he thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever seen. I then proceeded to his home bar and made four martinis in one shaker with unfamiliar glassware and a non standard shaker and did the same thing. From that moment forward I knew he had no compunction about my cock ever being in his daughter's mouth.

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                        • #13
                          I believe you can never tell what you are going to do in these situations. It's easy to claim you would never go that far, but you will only know when you actually end up in that situation.

                          At school we once had a nice project like that, all kids of our year had to go to this boat and blue eyed people had to do shitty tasks and were bullied by the staff of the boat, the brown (and other colors) eyed people just had a relaxing time. What happened? The brown eyed people started to bully us too, mocking us, point and laugh at us. They were not told to do this, they just did it.

                          Afterwards they were asked why they did that, and they didn't really know, it was just funny to them to be in a position where they could.
                          You ate some priest porridge

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                          • #14
                            That's a good study, but what specifically do you think lead them to do that?

                            -No fear of repercussion?

                            -Peer pressure? (one brown-haired kid starts, the others follow)

                            -something else?


                            Originally posted by Gall
                            If you have to kill to save your own life, that's one thing. Going beyond just killing someone is going beyond saving your own life.
                            What if a bunch of people have to die in order for you to live? Does your life take priority, just because you are in the position to decide who lives and dies?

                            How much killing to save yourself is still morally just? What if a group of people want you dead?
                            My father in law was telling me over Thanksgiving about this amazing bartender at some bar he frequented who could shake a martini and fill it to the rim with no leftovers and he thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever seen. I then proceeded to his home bar and made four martinis in one shaker with unfamiliar glassware and a non standard shaker and did the same thing. From that moment forward I knew he had no compunction about my cock ever being in his daughter's mouth.

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                            • #15
                              Misplaced sense of superiority.

                              A bit the same how fat American kids who couldn't fire a gun, walk a mile without a sweat and didn't even finish high school yet think they need to brag about how 'they' own the world.
                              There's no pressure, and they get trashed for doing so, but they can turn blind to it all.
                              You ate some priest porridge

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