Abortion, re-revisited

[genocidal]

I saw on FoxNews that there is some new type of ultrasound that gives much clearer, multi-dimensional pictures of fetuses. I couldn't find an article detailing the science but that's not the point of the discussion here; it merely sparks an open debate.

Mississippi would like women to look at ultrasounds before abortions. I heard some talk of making this mandatory (something pro-life advocates would clearly want since it's harder to kill something that you can see).

Since abortion is a deeply rooted debate and we won't change opinions on here, let's try to limit discussion to forcing women to see ultrasounds of babies they want to abort. This is essentially an issue of liberty since it has no bearing on the actual abortion. Should a woman be forced to see the baby she is going to kill? Is it even legal to make someone look at something? Informed consent has been a hot-button issue for pro-lifers and it looks like it's on the rise again.

My opinion:

I think that this is ridiculous. I'm a big civil liberties kind of guy and I hate when I think people are making me do things. Maybe it's the childish rebel in me but if someone is making me do something - even if I don't particularly care one way or the other - I decide to specifically do something else if it imposes on my free will. That's more of a personality trait but it spills over into my political calculus.

Added to that is the fact that I never had a problem with abortion at any stage anyway. I know I'm going to run into a lot of opposition but I personally don't care about partial-birth abortions. Yes I know what is entailed (busting up a baby and vacuuming it out, essentially) and no I don't care. That might be the inner-Malthusian but I believe that there are enough people in the world for us not to have unnecessary or unwanted people.

If anyone is going to attack my morality I'll be glad to have that debate but let it also be known that I have personally had an abortion with a child of mine. I'm 20 years old and it happened when I was 19 (the girl 18) and there was no way I was going to raise a child in college. I never regret the decision but I do feel very badly for my girlfriend.

Here is my sensible solution to the problem: create a program where pro-life advocates sign up and when someone wants an abortion they must first advertise it with this group and see if any pro-lifers would like to adopt. If not, the baby may be killed. If so, and the mother willing, it can be born. But again, I would defer to the woman's preference since it is she that bears the weight and pain of birth. I'd just like to see Bible-boppers putting their money where their mouth is more often.

Discuss.

EDIT: It's and its, children.

[Facetious]

I agree on the adoption thing. Anyone who has adopted a child can talk about pro-life this and pro-life that, but if you haven't, seriously, shut up. If you think it's so important that unwanted children be born into this world, you'd better man up and take care of them. I think it'd be a ridiculous law to make the mother look at an ultrasound of a fetus, but I also don't think that would change anything at all, it's not like the fetus is going to smile and wave or anything.

[genocidal]

Well apparently there are statistics that show women are much less likely to follow through with an abortion after seeing an ultrasound (and probably moreso with these new ones). The Supreme Court has already ignored the issue of informed consent but they may have to decide something this time.

[Fit of Rage]

It's ridiculous that women should be forced to look at the ultrasound. If anything, it should be required that the doctor/clinic notify the mother that if she so chooses, they can provide such an ultrasound. I'm pretty sure most women that go into abortion clinics are of the mindset "Get this thing out of me" rather than "I might want it, I might not, depend on how cute it is."

It's not like you can shop at Macy's for your prime choice of fetus.

[Zerzera]

I care not, it's about America.

[Noah]

Free abortion.
And this is about the only point where I honestly think that anyone that disagrees with me is assholes.

[Ephemeral]

I think that the 'make woman see the fetus' is stupid. If they do this, let's make sure that she gets good pictures of the homogeneously echogenic protrusion (fetus tail) and gills because the 10-12 week period is when these are present.
Note: 88% of all US abortions occur in the 10-13 week time after the last menstrual period.


Face, anyone who pays taxes has a right to talk about how tax money is spent.

[Facetious]

So if someone decided our tax money should go towards mass slaughter of, say, all redheads, I can't tell them that they are wrong, since they pay taxes? Obviously I'm not saying that people shouldn't legally be allowed to talk about pro-life stuff, I'm just saying that if you are having your own kids, and not adopting any, I think you shouldn't have the right to talk about pro-life stuff as in, I will like you less.

[Ephemeral]

So if someone decided our tax money should go towards mass slaughter of, say, all redheads, I can't tell them that they are wrong, since they pay taxes? Obviously I'm not saying that people shouldn't legally be allowed to talk about pro-life stuff, I'm just saying that if you are having your own kids, and not adopting any, I think you shouldn't have the right to talk about pro-life stuff as in, I will like you less.

No, if someone decided that our tax money should go towards mass slaughter of all redheads, then you would impeach them or remove them from office.

My intent was only to point out the flaw in the logic. It follows the same logic that people use about voting, ‘if you do not vote you should not talk about the current elected officials’. But the logic should be that if you pay taxes, you should be allowed to say whatever you wish about them without having voted (especially until they put a ‘None of the Above’ on the ballots).

[Hero*]

Ill agree with face here, to an extent. i think that if you really care about someones unborn child then u should make a good effort to try and keep it alive,even if that means you have to adopt it. However you are limiting who can believe in what. I may not have enough money to support a kid so i cant really adopt it, but it doesnt mean I dont care about it. a baby isnt even alive when its in the fetus or else when it was born we'd say "happy 9th month!" :P. but seriously, it all goes back to what the woman wants.

[Twerp]

I'm pretty sure most women that go into abortion clinics are of the mindset "Get this thing out of me" rather than "I might want it, I might not, depend on how cute it is."

I laughed :turned:

[Facetious]

You might not have enough money to raise a child, but if you are richer than the poorest person that you are preventing from having an abortion (I imagine that's really fucking poor) I still think you should adopt if you're going to put one of those preachy bumper stickers on their car.

[HeavenSent]

a baby isnt even alive when its in the fetus or else when it was born we'd say "happy 9th month!" :P

:huh: :ermm:

[Hero*]

well personally i believe that a baby isnt 'alive' untill it has his/her first breath. thats just me though. and face just because someone may be against abortion doesnt really mean they have to adopt one. but i understand you are talking about the extremists.

[Scurvy]

pro post-birth abortion