Bill O'Reilly vs Geraldo Rivera - Screaming Match

[Emaho]

The guy with the mustache owns the prick/racist.
They should try to see what the real problem is and restrain the sales of alcohol better.

[Kolar]

No I was thinking the quality of health care, better jobs, clean water and cheap food. People still want to come to the US for these things, because it provides a better life for them and their family. I think people villanize the United States too often without taking a quick look around the world. It's moderately better then Sudan, Cuba, China and Iran but that isn't saying much at all. America isn't the shining beacon of democracy, it's not providing hope for a better future for its citizens and the world and it isn't peaceful, neoconservatives running the show or not.


I think people make an issue over it because again, even right now, you're acting like the shit doesn't stink. I'm saying that if you want to claim to be a world leader, to be a peaceful nation and be a people concerned for democracy, human rights and all that good stuff then you have to stop pointing at the small good you do, start practicing what you're preaching and understand that you're not some how fucking special. The West is not some how morally or ethically superior to that of any other culture/race/religion or region in the world. We've done too much bad to claim anything of the sort.

The US has no monopoly on close mindedness but the recent changes in media has taken its toll (Fox News being the center piece). It takes a lot to change your perception of the culture and country you live in. It's often nice and comforting to believe that no matter what we're fighting the good fight and doing the right thing.

[Ephemeral]

I think that you fell into making the same sweeping generalization that others fall into. What do you mean when you say, "you're acting like the shit doesn't stink". You are saying that the entire population of the US acts this way? The entire US media? The entire US government? Also, Fox news does not represent the US, it does not even represent the right wing. It is a program developed for ratings. Read this as it makes money.
Your statement of "It's moderately better then Sudan, Cuba, China and Iran but that isn't saying much at all" is just your opinion (even though you state it as factual). Human rights? Only moderately better than Sudan, Cuba, China and Iran? That is why so many people are trying to immigrate INTO these countries?

If you wanted to be critical, point to how USA has promoted 'Me-ism'. A by-product of capitalism, 'Me-ism' (defined as behavior driven by whatever is best for ME, fuck everyone else) is, IMO, the real enemy.
But my opinion is that capitalism is embraced by many countries, and there is little difference between the 'left' and 'right' when it comes to capitalism.
John Edwards (Dem. NC), has raped acres and acres by clear cutting all trees so he can build his $20 million house. Perfect example of left-wing 'Me-ism'. But the illusion is that he will be better for the environment than Bush. I see no difference, I only see two bullshitters who will say and do anything to get what THEY want for themselves. I think that my point stands, no country, no political party, no people, has a monopoly anything. There are just as many idiots in USA as there are in any other country. And there are just as many decent good people in the USA as there are in any other country.

But if I am wrong, or if people want to disagree with this, than they have an easy way to deal with it. Stop immigrating here, stop buying and supporting American goods and services, stop supporting USA military bases. Hate mongering and whining about the US, while supporting it, solves nothing and simply makes people look hypocritical.
Go organize a grassroots movement and pressure your own governments to stop supporting the USA. Exercise personal activism by examining the things you have your possession right now, discard the USA products and services and replace them with the products and services from countries you believe to be doing the right things (that would include Microsoft OS and TW since it is hosted here).

[genocidal]

I told myself I wouldn't do this anymore; I lied to myself.

No I was thinking the quality of health care, better jobs, clean water and cheap food. People still want to come to the US for these things, because it provides a better life for them and their family. I think people villanize the United States too often without taking a quick look around the world. It's moderately better then Sudan, Cuba, China and Iran but that isn't saying much at all. America isn't the shining beacon of democracy, it's not providing hope for a better future for its citizens and the world and it isn't peaceful, neoconservatives running the show or not.

The US is moderately better than Sudan and Iran? Have you ever been to the US? Canada smells like SHIT. I should have stopped reading your post here.

I think people make an issue over it because again, even right now, you're acting like the shit doesn't stink. I'm saying that if you want to claim to be a world leader, to be a peaceful nation and be a people concerned for democracy, human rights and all that good stuff then you have to stop pointing at the small good you do, start practicing what you're preaching and understand that you're not some how fucking special. The West is not some how morally or ethically superior to that of any other culture/race/religion or region in the world. We've done too much bad to claim anything of the sort.

Who is claiming that? There is no reason we can't try to improve things simply because we have the power to do so more than any other nation. I'll agree that thinking we're saints or something is wrong but I don't think anyone but morons think that - and certainly no one in this thread except maybe Izor but if people still read what he writes then they're on his level anyway.

Anyway, there's no way I'm going to get into a discussion with spacers about immigration, or even drunk driving. Good find, though, Dameon.

[Kolar]

I think that you fell into making the same sweeping generalization that others fall into. What do you mean when you say, "you're acting like the shit doesn't stink".

I'm saying you can not claim your political policies, actions and place in the world is at level or better then the enemies nation states you claim to be destabilizing the world and harming your people.

But my opinion is that capitalism is embraced by many countries, and there is little difference between the 'left' and 'right' when it comes to capitalism.
John Edwards (Dem. NC), has raped acres and acres by clear cutting all trees so he can build his $20 million house. Perfect example of left-wing 'Me-ism'.

There's little difference at all between Democrats and Republicans, I understand that. The Neoconservate movement pretty recently has driven American foreign policy though.

But the illusion is that he will be better for the environment than Bush. I see no difference, I only see two bullshitters who will say and do anything to get what THEY want for themselves. I think that my point stands, no country, no political party, no people, has a monopoly anything.

I don't think they do but at this point in history, the United States has the power and influence to greatly effect the world for the better or for the worst. If it continues on the same track right now, left or right, this entire planet is in for some rough times.

Go organize a grassroots movement and pressure your own governments to stop supporting the USA. Exercise personal activism by examining the things you have your possession right now, discard the USA products and services and replace them with the products and services from countries you believe to be doing the right things (that would include Microsoft OS and TW since it is hosted here).

That's the problem though. I and the other decent people of the world do enjoy American culture, American capitalism, American products ect.. but dislike American foreign policy. Nothing externally can stop an Economic Empire like this, sorry Eph but it's up to you guys. And don't take this as "vote democrat in 2008", you either push for reform, bipartisanship and cooperation or not. Individual elections will rarely effect those efforts. Canada is more or less in the same spot but much more fragmented.

[Kolar]

The US is moderately better than Sudan and Iran? Have you ever been to the US? Canada smells like SHIT. I should have stopped reading your post here.

Yeah sorry, on behalf of all Canadians I apologize. The Federal Govn. and the Provinces are still working on installing sewage for all major cities. They promised it back in 1972.

[Ephemeral]

I'm saying you can not claim your political policies, actions and place in the world is at level or better then the enemies nation states you claim to be destabilizing the world and harming your people.

I don't think they do but at this point in history, the United States has the power and influence to greatly effect the world for the better or for the worst. If it continues on the same track right now, left or right, this entire planet is in for some rough times.

That's the problem though. I and the other decent people of the world do enjoy American culture, American capitalism, American products ect.. but dislike American foreign policy. Nothing externally can stop an Economic Empire like this, sorry Eph but it's up to you guys. And don't take this as "vote democrat in 2008", you either push for reform, bipartisanships and cooperation or not. Individual elections will rarely effect those efforts. Canada is more or less in the same spot but much more fragmented.

I think you summed it up pretty well, non-USA people want their cake and eat it too. They have brought into ‘Me-ism’, they like capitalism, they do not want to make any sacrifices, they expect USA to fix it (even though USA did not ‘invent’ capitalism).
Greenhouse gases? Let USA fix it. Ignore that China will be pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere than USA in the next few years. Ignore that each of us can have a REAL impact by cutting back on jet trips. Let us believe that big, bad USA is the real culprit. No one wants to make any personal sacrifices, it is simply easier to point at the USA.

[Epinephrine]

I think you summed it up pretty well, non-USA people want their cake and eat it too. They have brought into ‘Me-ism’, they like capitalism, they do not want to make any sacrifices, they expect USA to fix it (even though USA did not ‘invent’ capitalism).
Greenhouse gases? Let USA fix it. Ignore that China will be pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere than USA in the next few years. Ignore that each of us can have a REAL impact by cutting back on jet trips. Let us believe that big, bad USA is the real culprit. No one wants to make any personal sacrifices, it is simply easier to point at the USA.

Well except for the fact that aside from Canada, Australia and the US (ignorning California), basically every other developed country has tried hard to decrease greenhouse gases, so your point is kind of moot As for China, how can you expect China do to anything when the US isn't even going to do anything and the US is 'supposed' to be the world leader and have some sort of moral high ground?

[Kolar]

I think you summed it up pretty well, non-USA people want their cake and eat it too. They have brought into ‘Me-ism’, they like capitalism, they do not want to make any sacrifices, they expect USA to fix it (even though USA did not ‘invent’ capitalism).
Greenhouse gases? Let USA fix it. Ignore that China will be pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere than USA in the next few years. Ignore that each of us can have a REAL impact by cutting back on jet trips. Let us believe that big, bad USA is the real culprit. No one wants to make any personal sacrifices, it is simply easier to point at the USA.

How's not lobbing bombs at middle eastern nations without UN backing or approval (much less your allies or a good portion of the world). I have no problem involving Canadian military units, funding and aid in arenas of the world necessary to the security of the North American continent and Europe but I will not support a failed ideology of spreading and forcing democracy nor would I support field testing of military technology in those operations.

As for the environment I'm not saying China and India are not going to play politics with the issue but to denounce the effects and basic existence of climate change and global warming just because you fear the economic impact in the short term is foolish. Canada has made a commitment to cutting emissions, the problem here though is the "New" Conservative Government (not holding a majority) is playing Texas politics on the issue, discounting the eventually health and safety disaster. A majority of Canadians see the need to conserve and change our energy uses, Alberta's firewall is just keeping that fucking noise to a quite whisper.

[Ephemeral]

Well except for the fact that aside from Canada, Australia and the US (ignorning California), basically every other developed country has tried hard to decrease greenhouse gases, so your point is kind of moot As for China, how can you expect China do to anything when the US isn't even going to do anything and the US is 'supposed' to be the world leader and have some sort of moral high ground?

No, do not think my point is moot. The treaty is on hold, with the US trying to exert pressure to include emerging countries like China. Would be nice if other countries got in line and did same thing, treaty would be signed and it would be a done deal.
You consider it fair to hold some countries responsible but give other countries like China and India a free pass and not even include them in the treaty? And even if fairness is not considered, do you feel it is a responsible environmental position to ignore two of the largest CO2 contributors moving forward? And why would any country hide behind 'waiting for the US'?

And where do people get this crap about the US being a world leader and having the high moral ground? Is there some sort of US declaration announcing this? One way to look at this is that the US sticks it’s nose into world situations. The other way to look at it is that we get sucked into world situations. I would say the truth is somewhere in between.

If the world drops into protectionism and isolationism, I would say that the US would not suffer as much as the rest of the world. WW2 proved that the US has the will and resources to make it happen, the US was the deciding factor in WW2 by simply out-producing the rest of the world. Does this make the US great? No. Does this make the US responsible for the rest of the world? No.

I would suggest that some people use the US political rhetoric as an excuse to hate and try to hold it responsible as opposed to doing the work and taking responsibilities themselves.

It feels the same as forcing the tobacco companies to help people to stop smoking. Like people do not have any responsibilities themselves to quit. Somehow big, bad corporate tobacco companies used mind control to make people start smoking. Of course idiot corporate tobacco company executives get in front of congress and bullshit, making matters worse. But my opinion is that the world is moving away from personal responsibility (which is why I am bothering to post). The world may be made up of big, bad corporations and governments. But who the hell is running the show? IT IS PEOPLE. People like you and me. You can not can separate the two entities, corporations/governments are simply a refection of society.

We all need to stop whining about big corporations/governments and start taking responsibility and action.

[Ephemeral]

How's not lobbing bombs at middle eastern nations without UN backing or approval (much less your allies or a good portion of the world). I have no problem involving Canadian military units, funding and aid in arenas of the world necessary to the security of the North American continent and Europe but I will not support a failed ideology of spreading and forcing democracy nor would I support field testing of military technology in those operations.

Geez, here we go into the war issue, making it feel more and more that this is simply ABB (Anything But Bush).

The UN had chance after chance, as did rest of world. Where were the other solutions? Once it became apparent that the US was not going to sit idle as genocide and environmental rape was occurring, why did not the rest of the world intercede and go in with the UN running the show? The opportunity was there. It is clear that Iraq simply ignored all political pressure. So what was the proper solution? Just not care?

Again, people should step up and do something other than whine. Boycott US products, start local grassroots movement, run for office and make changes.

We did it in the 1960's, we shut down nuclear power plants here in US and stopped them from building new ones. Oh wait, that’s why we only have these coal burning ones now. Hmmm.

Perhaps everyone should reconvene here in about 30-40 years and see if they still have their current perspectives.

[MirrorriM]

Amen Ephemeral.

[Kolar]

Geez, here we go into the war issue, making it feel more and more that this is simply ABB (Anything But Bush).

The UN had chance after chance, as did rest of world. Where were the other solutions? Once it became apparent that the US was not going to sit idle as genocide and environmental rape was occurring, why did not the rest of the world intercede and go in with the UN running the show? The opportunity was there. It is clear that Iraq simply ignored all political pressure. So what was the proper solution? Just not care?

Again, people should step up and do something other than whine. Boycott US products, start local grassroots movement, run for office and make changes.

We did it in the 1960's, we shut down nuclear power plants here in US and stopped them from building new ones. Oh wait, that’s why we only have these coal burning ones now. Hmmm.

Perhaps everyone should reconvene here in about 30-40 years and see if they still have their current perspectives.

Bush is not the problem, the people around him are and stop casting me into groups Eph. That only shows disrespect and serves to stifle discourse. You will never convince me, the American public or the world that the Iraq war had anything to do human suffering, freedom or the environment (nor oil). Just another fairly tale sold after nothing was found and there's clear evidence of the Administration reworking the evidence to fit their views. Why does all of this escape you Ephie? This isn't conspiracy theorist crap, it's reality.

Again, War was likely going to happen, it could have been averted given time and without 3,000 Americans soldiers dead and hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. That's on Bush now, the American public, not shared between other powers, not on Saddam Hussein, all that blood. Going against the UN and the world has cost the US greatly but executing that war without the proper tools or knowledge of the region has placed your country in the middle of a civil war for the next 20 years.

I'm all for making real change. When you're losing a debate like this though it's probably just best to respond to what I say, stop changing the topic and arguing that the discussion is keeping people from making those changes. While you may not find political debate/discussion on this forum to be enjoyable maybe you need to get your feet wet in terms of dealing with people of different view points before you can. And if you do consider this nothing more then whining and find nothing in it please, follow the slogans of your party, if you don't like it get out and in more polite terms find something more fun to do with your time.

[Epinephrine]

No, do not think my point is moot. The treaty is on hold, with the US trying to exert pressure to include emerging countries like China. Would be nice if other countries got in line and did same thing, treaty would be signed and it would be a done deal.
You consider it fair to hold some countries responsible but give other countries like China and India a free pass and not even include them in the treaty? And even if fairness is not considered, do you feel it is a responsible environmental position to ignore two of the largest CO2 contributors moving forward? And why would any country hide behind 'waiting for the US'?

And where do people get this crap about the US being a world leader and having the high moral ground? Is there some sort of US declaration announcing this? One way to look at this is that the US sticks it’s nose into world situations. The other way to look at it is that we get sucked into world situations. I would say the truth is somewhere in between.

If the world drops into protectionism and isolationism, I would say that the US would not suffer as much as the rest of the world. WW2 proved that the US has the will and resources to make it happen, the US was the deciding factor in WW2 by simply out-producing the rest of the world. Does this make the US great? No. Does this make the US responsible for the rest of the world? No.

I would suggest that some people use the US political rhetoric as an excuse to hate and try to hold it responsible as opposed to doing the work and taking responsibilities themselves.

It feels the same as forcing the tobacco companies to help people to stop smoking. Like people do not have any responsibilities themselves to quit. Somehow big, bad corporate tobacco companies used mind control to make people start smoking. Of course idiot corporate tobacco company executives get in front of congress and bullshit, making matters worse. But my opinion is that the world is moving away from personal responsibility (which is why I am bothering to post). The world may be made up of big, bad corporations and governments. But who the hell is running the show? IT IS PEOPLE. People like you and me. You can not can separate the two entities, corporations/governments are simply a refection of society.

We all need to stop whining about big corporations/governments and start taking responsibility and action.

Kyoto was created a long time ago, way back when China and India were no where near the emitters they are today.

Besides, the fact is that the US creates 25% of the world's greenhouse gases for 4% of it's population. How can anyone expect developing countries which have nowhere near the resources as the world's richest country to even try to care when the world's richest country and largest creator of CO2 doesn't give a damn? The 'not going to do anything until the other countries do too' is a cheap stalling tactic because people are scared of change. If the US was serious, it would be quite easy to force China and India to care more. Simply say, unless you lower your levels, we will impose tariffs your products. Or if you want a carrot approach, then the US would offer superior technology as aid to help China change over it's biggest polluting industries and coal plants. Unfortunately since the US doesn't give a damn... it can't impose any tarriffs because it's such a bad producer itself, and it can't offer superior technolgy because... it has none.

It's true that a lot of business would lose out if CO2 reductions happened, but then again, a LOT MORE people would lose out if global warming is allowed to continue.

The US as you have rightly pointed out has the capacity and power to be very sufficient. America ALSO has the power, technology, and scientific prowess to seriously tackle global warming like no other country on the planet. If America doesn't take any role in it whatsoever, the world loses the #1 country that could contribute the most, and that is the failure right there.

And in case you think I'm being Anti-American here, I'm not. I'm extremely disappointed Canada for completely failing in our Kyoto commitments even though we ratified the treaty. We've dropped the ball too.


As for big tobacco, no idea why you brought that up it's a straw man argument.

[Ephemeral]

Bush is not the problem, the people around him are and stop casting me into groups Eph. That only shows disrespect and serves to stifle discourse. You will never convince me, the American public or the world that the Iraq war had anything to do human suffering, freedom or the environment (nor oil). Just another fairly tale sold after nothing was found and there's clear evidence of the Administration reworking the evidence to fit their views. Why does all of this escape you Ephie? This isn't conspiracy theorist crap, it's reality.

Again, War was likely going to happen, it could have been averted given time and without 3,000 Americans soldiers dead and hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. That's on Bush now, the American public, not shared between other powers, not on Saddam Hussein, all that blood. Going against the UN and the world has cost the US greatly but executing that war without the proper tools or knowledge of the region has placed your country in the middle of a civil war for the next 20 years.

I'm all for making real change. When you're losing a debate like this though it's probably just best to respond to what I say, stop changing the topic and arguing that the discussion is keeping people from making those changes. While you may not find political debate/discussion on this forum to be enjoyable maybe you need to get your feet wet in terms of dealing with people of different view points before you can. And if you do consider this nothing more then whining and find nothing in it please, follow the slogans of your party, if you don't like it get out and in more polite terms find something more fun to do with your time.

You are correct that trying to present any side of a political that differs from several strong personalities in these forums is arduous. I find your comment and demeanor about ‘getting my feet wet’ to be condescending. I posted no insults towards you yet you seem to want to sling them back to me.

How did I cast you into a group? By saying it was feeling like ABB? You are the one who made several sweeping generalizations.

Your comment about ‘my party’ is a bad assumption on your part. You have no idea what ‘my party’ is, yet you are confident enough to assume this knowledge. (You are wrong btw, I am a registered Independent) This epitomizes many of your post’s perspectives.

Your statement about me switching topics is also misaligned. You were the one who dragged up the war issue, not me. It might escape some people, but the theme in everyone of my posts was about personal responsibilities vs. making it someone else’s problem. Sorry if I used analogies and you mistook them for ‘changing the topic’.

As for winning or losing the ‘debate’, this is probably the greatest misunderstanding. Apparently you are posting in an attempt to ‘win’, I was posting in an attempt to get people to see a side/perspective that they are not seeing. Only hope I had was someone saying, ‘I see your point, but I still feel that…”. There was no ‘win’ or ‘lose’ for me, only hope. Sorry for hoping.