Does religion give people better morality?

[Cops]

I remember when you were banned, that's about it.

[Cops]

It's not really the Koran.

It's a bunch of people who are extreme, with or without the Koran, who take advantage of the way people are being raised in those countries to hammer into those children that if the west is not attacked all muslim faith will die out. All they need to do is take some stuff out of context, go on and on about how the western world is set out to destroy all muslims and there ya go. There is no reading between the lines needed.

Besides, from what I understand there is a documentary out there about a bible camp in America which is doing the exact same thing, which is creating extremists and using the bible as an excuse.

Jesus Camp! Political threads on this forum turn into a U.S hating on Europe and Europe hating on U.S, people on this forum constantly point out each other's flaws and claim moral superiority over the other. It's a constant battle of the tea-pot calling the kettle black. I'm not siding with either of you because from my point of view you have stupid people in both countries, and so does my country.

[MetalHeadz]

You're categorizing religious people into a category that dismisses their intelligence before you even know who they are. I think you should say 'In my honest opinion religious extremists are fuckin' stupid'. That would be a bit more politically correct. I do no factor someone's religion into their intelligence, I think that they are two separate things. I don't look at a Hindu and say you're half as intelligent as me, or look at a Christian and say you're part of the ***. I think the problem is that religion helps magnify our misconceptions about other people, and if we judge peple based on their religion then that is no more right than judging someone based on the color of their skin.

Ok, you seem to have commented on the smallest part of my post but let's have a go at explaining myself.

Cops, before I start, I do know who religious people are: they're people who believe in God which is enough for me to claim that they're ignorant or irrational. Both of these word synonyms for 'stupid'


Firstly, I used the word 'average', this means that there will be a few which are intelligent.

Secondly, religious people are, on the whole, less educated and less intelligent than their athiest brothers and sisters. The whole essence of 'faith' is that it looks logic in the face and spits in it. If you actively invoke that the creator of the universe was definitely a conscious being you automatically rid yourself of any intellectual credentials. It's as if to say, we know the facts (or indeed some don't which proves my initial claim even more) but we think the opposite way because of a deep down sense that we are true. The day any religious person gives me any decent, scientific evidence that God exists is the day I'll stop claiming they are fuckin' stupid.

Ok, so the fundamental premise of religion is utterly illogical. However, these people don't just believe in religion; they live religiously. They make decisions based upon the messages in religion. They do all of the already stated bad things religious people do every fuckin' day, many of them killing themselves in the name of their God. Tell me, can anyone be anymore unintelligent to kill themselves for something that has absolutely no foundation in any rational school of thought? Or indeed, not to kill themselves but just dedicate their lives to going to church everyweek, or to praying a hundred times a day?

I really hate this mentality that we have to afford religious people some sorta outwardly expressed respect, as if they're a race or something. They're not a fuckin' race for the record, they're just a group of people who believe in a stupid set of ideas. Seriously though, religious people are awarded far to much courtesy. I don't give anymore respect to a religious person than, for example, a holocaust denier or a mentally patient or a scientologist or anyone who blatently ignores scientific progress and advocates a position that is illogical. I wouldn't even mind if they just sat at home and did it by themselves, but they're pushing it in my face - 'fuck off, you religious cunts'.

[Mythrandir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FxPOANbmjI
beware cheesy music ^

I can't really accept that since the story is mere assertion. Even if it were true, you could at most argue that it is a bad thing to be nationless, raceless and be in the process of building a tower to the heavens.

[Mythrandir]

Their are good moral people with or without religion the problem is that those people brake down barriers and let the masses run riot. Just look at our society now, after the 60s cultural war our women are walking around half naked, all sorts of vile degenrate things being tolerated AND ALL supported by dumbass liberals. The Christian standard in which all people once aspired and worked towards is now gone, it was brought to a nuaght by liberalsim then replaced with cultural marxism. Marxism basically says that anyone or anything should be tolerated and anything not in that core belief system should not be tolerated and treated as "extreamism" its destroying western civilisation!

All these people that follow the tune of the media are curropt and deep down follow marxist values knowingly or unknowingly. They may be good people inside or think they are but as a whole our society is imoral, its plain to see.

MetalHeadz you dont have a fkn clue about Christianity. You just lump it all together thinking you know it all.....youre parroting nonsense!

Emotion and emotional reasoning has absolutely no place in a debate, if the goal is to acquire insight into a situation. Furthermore, many of your premises are assertions which are highly debatable by itself. Thus, your conclusion is far from established. I think the biggest problem is the misattribution of labels.

[Bioture]

time to lay the wood

ok I've read this thread through a couple of times, and it's absolutely astounding how moronic people can get - but then again, maybe not that astounding. I'm pretty much used to the whole "I'm too open minded for religion" stance. But seriously, if you're a genious that's capable of claiming:

I do know who religious people are: they're people who believe in God which is enough for me to claim that they're ignorant or irrational. Both of these word synonyms for 'stupid'

just stop right there, go home, and go FUCK YOURSELF. The spiritual and secular part of me cringes to think that there are actually people out there who believe that they have the personal authority to make such an "ignorant or irrational" statement. And I'm leaving it at that - if you can make such a statement alone, without any afterthought whatsoever, then that's where our conversation ends. Religious and secular radicals. Both make me SICK.


Let me start off by saying that morality is subjective. I'm going to assume that everyone knows what that means, and i'm going to move on.

Now let's take a look at morals objectively. What are the origins of morals? Let's just keep it to the west. What were western laws founded on? Why is compassion expressed so much more freely in the west than anywhere else in the world? Why are "religious people" generally more giving? It's one nation, under - what? Morals? Religion? Ignorance? Tolerance? Oh right - one nation under GOD.

Like it or not, if you've grown up in a westernized culture, the morals that you have are affected by Judaeo-Christian values. And if your morality is based upon what you know about morals... please connect the fucking dots for me.

[Zerzera]

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."
- Albert Camus

[Cops]

Ok, you seem to have commented on the smallest part of my post but let's have a go at explaining myself.

Cops, before I start, I do know who religious people are: they're people who believe in God which is enough for me to claim that they're ignorant or irrational. Both of these word synonyms for 'stupid'

I'll only reply to this post, mainly because I refuse to comment on your atheist banter. I'm probably less aggressive to this argument compared to someone who is religious but you're really shooting yourself in the foot.

edit: actually I think I don't think Bioture's one nation under GOD analogy was that great.

[Galleleo]

Let me start off by saying that morality is subjective. I'm going to assume that everyone knows what that means, and i'm going to move on.

Now let's take a look at morals objectively. What are the origins of morals? Let's just keep it to the west. What were western laws founded on? Why is compassion expressed so much more freely in the west than anywhere else in the world? Why are "religious people" generally more giving? It's one nation, under - what? Morals? Religion? Ignorance? Tolerance? Oh right - one nation under GOD.

Like it or not, if you've grown up in a westernized culture, the morals that you have are affected by Judaeo-Christian values. And if your morality is based upon what you know about morals... please connect the fucking dots for me.

Just because America likes to say: One nation under God, doesn't mean the rest of the western world feels the same way. I am not claiming our laws aren't based on Christianity or religion at all, but we don't claim to be one nation under God either. And my morals and values are not affected by Judaeo-Christian values at all, they are my own morals and values, and just because at some points they might be the same (or really close to the same, values can be the same, but the way we interpret these values, our norms, hardly ever are the same) it doesn't mean mine are based from it.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing or defending Metal Headz, he is ignorant.

[SEAL]

Your enlightening explanation is kind of contradicting with the text "god is with us" which was printed on our old money

[Galleleo]

And that money is what.. old?

And I did say:

I am not claiming our laws aren't based on Christianity or religion at all

[Kolar]

I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that religion historically played a role in the formation of Western society. But it is also very important to understand the need in the 21st century that it remains outside the political, and when not appropriate, social spheres of our lives.

And just because it's acknowledged by our countries, on our money and on other documents doesn't mean we or our governments must respect it or its contribution on any level. I believe freedom of religion is important, as important as any other fundamental right and requiring people to acknowledge any religion or its contribution, positively or negatively would violate that right.

Our laws are based British common law, which is based on some earlier form of writen code. Earlier cultures were heavily influenced by religion, thus the fusion of criminal-civil codes and dontrine was deemed acceptable. I don't think that invalidates their contribution down the centuries which has helped us form our legal systems, they like us were just human beings trying to ensure people weren't killing each other, stealing from one another ect... In a less complex society making people deadly afraid of doing such acts, so much so that death, amputation or torture were not the prime motivators worked for them. Social stigma or an eternity with a fire poker up your ass motivated people not to hurt each other.

[MetalHeadz]

If you're deluded enough to deny scientific reasoning and endorse a way of life based on an illogical explanation for our existence, you are, by my definition, stupid.

Somebody mentioned spirituality, I'm not against being spiritual. I think that you can be spiritual in a non-religious way. Why do we feel the urge attribute lifes beauty to such a falsehood like God? Fuck God, he didn't do anything.

Ok, so there may have been times in history where law and religion crossed paths, but why do you grant religion special status for this? In my opinion, politics and religion should be kept separate. When you act with religious conviction at political level it usually ends badly (in my experience).

George W. Bush famously said that God was on his side when entering war with Iraq, as if this was to justify his means. He abused his faith and the belief of thousands of Americans. Religion is used as a tool not only in America, but also in Middle Eastern countries and in terrorist militia groups. I accept that perhaps when times were less civilised, religion may have played a part in teaching values, with divine consequences. However in todays society I see religions' role as a moral guide less important and it's role in politics and law as merely facilitating wider motives.

[MetalHeadz]

I believe freedom of religion is important, as important as any other fundamental right and requiring people to acknowledge any religion or its contribution, positively or negatively would violate that right.

For the record, so do I. I don't believe that religious people should be disallowed from thinking the way they do, I believe that people should be able to make their own choice. However, I think religious people should allow their children to make their decision by themselves.

Just funny the way most religions don't afford such freedoms. The worst crime in Islam is to change faith, or indeed become athiest. Punishable by death in many Islamic states.

[MetalHeadz]

Now don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing or defending Metal Headz, he is ignorant.

Damn, I'm ignorant!

Shame cos I agree with most of what you're saying :P