Martyrs, brave or stupid?

[milosh]

Stupid, because any person who thinks for themselves and isn't brainwashed knows that killing people is wrong, and the smart people who think for themselves would not do something so selfish... even if they are suicidal and want to die they know enough to do it without hurting anyone else.

lmao... i love you guys for posting stupid things. it really brightens my day.

all martyrs obviously CHOOSE to be martyrs so they can have glory after death! when i was 5 i used to want to be a martyr when i grew up, but at 6 i realized that maybe an doctor was a less SELFISH(side note: more capitalistic) decision. this is bull shit. like said above, you can't make yourself a martyr(e.g. 911); the public decides after you're already dead. what percentage of planet earth sees the WTC pilots as martyrs?

[Galleleo]

The monks setting themselves on fire!

[Izor]

But then stupid, because you would have more of a chance of having more of an impact for your cause in your life rather than death.

not true

[Material Girl]

not true

Um, yes it is true. Dumbass.

[Cops]

Not exactly, sometimes self sacrifice can cause more reaction/change then living would.

[Material Girl]

No, because it's the people who are living and breathing that promote awareness to a cause. The whole idea of suicide bombing terrorists being thought of as "heros" is just plain stupid to me. They are lunatic cowards, brainwashed imbiciles imposing their inane views by killing innocent civilians, just because they have a different perspective.

The other day my friend and I were discussing world peace. He said he could think of only one instance where world peace would happen, at least temporarily. Can any of you guess what it is? :wub:

[PaulOakenfold]

The whole idea of suicide bombing terrorists being thought of as "heros" is just plain stupid to me.

Suicide bombers aren't the only martyrs in history.

And yes, dieing for your faith has always been looked highly upon by those of the same faith.

Cops is right.

[Material Girl]

Well, it seems to me that a human life is not worth losing for any perceived cause, real or imagined.

[Zerzera]

Jesus died for all our sins!! How's that for impact!

[MetalHeadz]

Well, it seems to me that a human life is not worth losing for any perceived cause, real or imagined.

I agree 95% with this statement. The different paths this universe could have taken which didn't include you or me are infinite - why not make the most of what you have here. The grotesquely small chance that a series of coincidences could lead to a conscious, intelligent life form is phenomenal and is often overlooked by religious conviction - who claim that our creation was in some way planned. The very notion of matyrdom/afterlife completely undermines the sheer amazingness and mathematical improbability of individual existence.

I do see how dying for something that you believe in could be seen as some act of bravery or an 'ultimate sacrifice'. However, the mentality of people who are martyrs is that they will be going to paradise/heaven/whatever (in Islams' case, to meet 72 virgins) so I don't think it can be called brave: with all it's honorable connotations.

Conclusion: Dying for something you believe in to make a political statement which will benefit the people you leave behind is brave. Dying, and indeed killing others in the process, for self-interest and for the promotion of violence and disharmony is evil and disgraceful.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Conclusion: Dying for something you believe in to make a political statement which will benefit the people you leave behind is brave. Dying, and indeed killing others in the process, for self-interest and for the promotion of violence and disharmony is evil and disgraceful.

I dunno, I think dying to make a political statement isn't really brave at all. The really brave ones actually attempt to change shit. I hold, ethically, that the measure of a man's courage isn't measured by his willingness to die, because death is certain anyways. And when you end your own life for a cause, you put an unnatural burden and unjustified burden on other people - the classic scenario of a heartbroken man killing himself in the bride's room, etc.

A martyr who kills people with himself is the same sort of man. He is violating their rights, and sacrificing their lives for a "greater cause".

As I see it, self-interest should be the only reason for ending your own life. Your body is your property and you have the final say. Hunter S. Thompson chose that route, for example.

I dunno, to really discuss martyrdom,. you really have to define the word. It has tons of different meanings, from the broad "someone who dies in the name of something" to the more specific religious application to the more recent and controversial islamic "martyrs"... or even, whether said martyrs even take lives, their own included.

[RednaZ]

The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. -Wilhelm Stekel

[milosh]

wow... all of you still don't get it... why do you think that martyrs CHOOSE to be martyrs???? Most of the notable martyrs in history were people KILLED by other people because of beliefs they had. It's not that they submitted themselves to the oppressing group, it's not that they committed suicide for their cause, and it wasn't a deliberate choice they made so that they would appear brave or noble; these people were captured, imprisoned, possibly tortured, and executed. The only way they could possibly have gotten out of this situation would be to deny their beliefs, curse their God, or turn in their companions. For people that truly love their God, faith, and companions THIS ISN'T EVEN A CHOICE. But by telling the truth and not lying I think it's safe to say that its BRAVERY not STUPIDITY. Only a coward would lie and deny himself. For clarification, bravery doesn't mean they weren't afraid and sad; it means they WERE afraid and sad but they stuck to their guns anyway.

[Scoop]

wow... all of you still don't get it... why do you think that martyrs CHOOSE to be martyrs???? Most of the notable martyrs in history were people KILLED by other people because of beliefs they had. It's not that they submitted themselves to the oppressing group, it's not that they committed suicide for their cause, and it wasn't a deliberate choice they made so that they would appear brave or noble; these people were captured, imprisoned, possibly tortured, and executed. The only way they could possibly have gotten out of this situation would be to deny their beliefs, curse their God, or turn in their companions. For people that truly love their God, faith, and companions THIS ISN'T EVEN A CHOICE. But by telling the truth and not lying I think it's safe to say that its BRAVERY not STUPIDITY. Only a coward would lie and deny himself. For clarification, bravery doesn't mean they weren't afraid and sad; it means they WERE afraid and sad but they stuck to their guns anyway.

A forum mod can close this thread now because bete noire just hit the nail on the head.

[Material Girl]

I think that in the context of THIS thread, martyr can be defined as a suicide bomber who kills innocent bystanders. That's the type I was focusing on.