A Soldiers Christmas

[FarScape]

I think you missed my point Farscape.

My point was, the only reason Osama has such a powerful organisation is because America supplied them weapons and training, etc. to fight the Russians.

The only reason Saddam was in power in Iraq was because America put him in Charge in Iraq cause back then it was best for America.

And after all these years Osama attacks (I still have not seen proof of this) America, while he might not have been as powerful without Americas aid in the first place, and now America had to go to clean up their own shit in Afghanistan.

After all these years, suddenly Saddam being in power in Iraq did not work out as good anymore for the US, so now they had to go to Iraq to clean up their own shit.

That was my point.

And the whole: Yeah no we go there to rebuild countries. I don't buy that shit anymore from the US. The ones who are rebuilding Afghanistan right now are more UN troops than American troops. And I am sure that in a couple of years America expects the UN to step in to rebuild Iraq too.

And China is a worse civilization than what? To be honest, I still think the whole 9/11 stuff is very shady (not saying the US did it, but there are still questions that remain unanswered and some shady stuff going on). Then again, I dont really care enough to go investigate it, or whatever.

Well US did it to put a strong contra against the soviets as you said. In Israel we also made those mistakes. Just ignoring what those groups really want is a bad idea. There is a lot of shit going on this world, especially with those weapons trades (now Africa is very strong customer).
China human rights are very awful. No freedom of speech at all. I don't think that Communism is the right way for us :fear:

[Galleleo]

The problem IMO is, is that during the Cold War both the US and Sovjet used Europe and Africa, etc. As a bunch of toys in there game. They used us for their own game.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

To develop yourself socially, you have to develop yourself economically first. If you don't develop yourself economically you can't create the jobs needed, certainly for such a huge population as in China.

China has had to change a lot politically to develop itself economically (a more capitalistic system). Obviously it is not a western country and there is still human rights violation going on. But what do you expect, it used to be an extremely communistic country, strictly governed. It is incredibly huge, with an incredibly huge population. To change that around will take a lot, but really a lot of years. It means changing the mindset of the older population (usually those in charge), maybe even takes a whole generation to really make steps. But I think they have been trying to make changes.

Yes I don't do extensive research into China and their practices, I don't spend days on the internet reading up on all kinds of sources. But I do not expect China to suddenly be all awesome, they didnt start that long ago with their changes. I also feel that the Olympics next year are gonna make a huge difference, economically but also politically and socially. Cause the IOC has made some demands on that basis too.

You have some valid points there, interspersed with a lot of totally invalid points. You could just as easily say a lot of the same things about the US: that it's an incredibly large land mass (China's just a bit smaller than the US, area-wise) with an older generation with a different mindset than the majority of it's younger population. And yet, there's a lot of people out there who think that the US can just throw this mother in reverse and change overnight.

Look, there's a lot of incredibly fucked up things that happen in China that COULD change overnight. For instance, the government could make a proclamation to stop arresting dissidents and lawyers. It could stop shipping weapons to Myanmar. It could stop enforcing the death penalty upon THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE per year. It could lift border internet filters that disallow dissenting communication with the outside world. There's LOTS that could be done, and it wouldn't take years to do so.

The US is guilty about a lot of things, and there are a lot of things that COULD change overnight, similarly. However, we can't bring home our overseas troops overnight (no matter how much some of us would like that). A lot of our problems are infrastructure problems that have a lot of manpower and physical installations involved.

Look, all I'm saying is that before you say things like "China's not so bad", to actually DO some research--make sure you have enough information to actually make an informed decision. I'm not saying you have to become the world's foremost scholar on any particular subject, but please don't try and downplay the terrible things by using extremely general language. I don't buy the whole idea of the Olympics somehow bringing about some incredible sea change--the IOC is even more toothless than the UN.

Gall, we get along pretty damn well, I'd say, and I hope you don't take what I've said as a personal attack, I'm just seeing someone that I respect starting to say things that kind of freak me out.

[Fluffz]

You can't impose one culture on the rest of the world.

Every culture has its pros and cons, and all you ever hear about the other cultures is how bad its cons are. We find stuff that goes against western views in all other cultures in the world, and through those things we judge an entire culture as "wrong".

Human Rights and Ethic stand above culture. You can teach it to people like Mathematic. Someone who rejects Mathematic or Ethic and every existing proof as false because of his personal views is working against everyone. This person would be the mistake that evolves the rest of the system by dealing with it. Now if this persons believes are destructive to the rest of the system it has every right to protect itself, where one way is war.

However this war was not started in defense (War on Terror wtf?), because of facts (WMD anyone?) or executed "right" (Guantánamo hello?) so i am having a little trouble to find the agressor that works against the system humankid here.

[Zerzera]

If I ever have to leave Europe, I would most probably try my luck in North America for any other continent. I know that the people there have basically the same values as we do.
But I do not believe that other countries, just because they have different values, have a society based on hate. Some nations do feel hate towards America and its allies, but does that immediately mean that they have no ethics and their culture has no right of existence? As conc pointed out, not all our allies respect human rights as we like to believe we do. And I don't think we ask ourselves enough if we do respect rights of the individual. We like to buy our goods as cheap as possible, and there is a reason the goods from China come cheap. Our society runs on oil and gas. We have no alternatives ready yet, so we need oil and we need it cheap.

[Noah]

Human Rights and Ethic stand above culture. You can teach it to people like Mathematic. Someone who rejects Mathematic or Ethic and every existing proof as false because of his personal views is working against everyone. This person would be the mistake that evolves the rest of the system by dealing with it. Now if this persons believes are destructive to the rest of the system it has every right to protect itself, where one way is war.

However this war was not started in defense (War on Terror wtf?), because of facts (WMD anyone?) or executed "right" (Guantánamo hello?) so i am having a little trouble to find the agressor that works against the system humankid here.

I'm just saying that maybe the western ethics will not fit every culture in the world. To us, our way of life is the best way of life. Who are we to say that everyone is best of by this? It's not about personal view on this one. It's about entire cultures.

I'm not saying that a culture that embraces genocide should be accepted, everything has its degrees.

[Fluffz]

Some nations do feel hate towards America and its allies, but does that immediately mean that they have [...] no right of existence?

Yes, from America and their allies point of view that is what it means. A System has every right to secure its existance at an optimal performance - which however is not reached by egoism.

To us, our way of life is the best way of life. Who are we to say that everyone is best of by this

obviously if our way of life wouldnt be the best we would change it to something better. An objective point of view is irrelevant since the best way of life will dominate all others sooner or later. This is evolution of culture.

Someone can only hope that this resulting Utopia is a beautifull lovely place for individuals rather than a steril cold mainstream engine but i am positive on that, its human nature. And if i am wrong the good thing is - we get what we deserve either way.

[Galleleo]

You have some valid points there, interspersed with a lot of totally invalid points. You could just as easily say a lot of the same things about the US: that it's an incredibly large land mass (China's just a bit smaller than the US, area-wise) with an older generation with a different mindset than the majority of it's younger population. And yet, there's a lot of people out there who think that the US can just throw this mother in reverse and change overnight.

Look, there's a lot of incredibly fucked up things that happen in China that COULD change overnight. For instance, the government could make a proclamation to stop arresting dissidents and lawyers. It could stop shipping weapons to Myanmar. It could stop enforcing the death penalty upon THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE per year. It could lift border internet filters that disallow dissenting communication with the outside world. There's LOTS that could be done, and it wouldn't take years to do so.

The US is guilty about a lot of things, and there are a lot of things that COULD change overnight, similarly. However, we can't bring home our overseas troops overnight (no matter how much some of us would like that). A lot of our problems are infrastructure problems that have a lot of manpower and physical installations involved.

Look, all I'm saying is that before you say things like "China's not so bad", to actually DO some research--make sure you have enough information to actually make an informed decision. I'm not saying you have to become the world's foremost scholar on any particular subject, but please don't try and downplay the terrible things by using extremely general language. I don't buy the whole idea of the Olympics somehow bringing about some incredible sea change--the IOC is even more toothless than the UN.

Gall, we get along pretty damn well, I'd say, and I hope you don't take what I've said as a personal attack, I'm just seeing someone that I respect starting to say things that kind of freak me out.

I am definitely not taking it as a personal attack, I respect you greatly. And I didn't mean to completely downplay the atrocities that have happened, and are still happening in China. But I do believe they are trying to make changes, at least to some extend.

The problem with China in changing is (I believe) the suppression of about anything really. A difference with America is, you people have always been "free" (and I use " cause, really how free can you really be in a society, that is a different discussion though). Anyway, Americans have always had to opportunity to critique the government, the way it runs things to spout ideas of how they would want it. And use mass media for this. Which imo would make making changes overnight way different. It is easier to find the people who agree with you, to know here to go etc. I am sure there are enough Chinese people with great ideas to change their country, but they were/are not allowed to publicly announce them.

Most of the people in power in China still believe in the old ways, they are just beginning to realise the economical changes needed to become that economical superpower that everyone is expecting them to become. And from what I understand, those changes (more capitalism, etc.) are not made without struggles either. Which is why I would expect China to maybe need an entire generation to change around. Then there is always the aspect, of how wrong to the Chinese think they are with what they do? Some realise to really become a superpower they will have to conform to the ideas of the West somewhat to be recognised to be able to have limited restrictions etc. But changing is harder when you think you are being right in the ways you do things then when you realise you are being wrong.

I do not know to which extent the Chinese population wants to change their ways, if the new Generation (say the ones between 10 and 30 now) feel China needs to change. If that feeling is not there China will never do more then the absolute required to remain a superpower.

On the other hand you also have to take into account the culture, personally I know a bit more about Japanese culture then Chinese, but I believe honour and stuff is still important in Chinese culture too. That is so different from the Western cultures that completely becoming a Western model like country is almost impossible (though Japan is doing pretty well with that).

And I do think the Olympics will help China, maybe its just in hiding everything even better (child labour, human rights violations, etc.) but I doubt China wants a lot of bad publicity around the Olympics as it should be a very positive thing for China and put China in a better daylight, at least I assume that is what China wants to accomplish. The Olympics have always been a pretty good Economic stimulation for countries (maybe not the games themselves, but publicity, everything around it, etc.) and for China it could very well have a politically/socially influence as well.

These are just my views/opinions on China, obviously I could very well be wrong on this. Certainly because I haven't done extensive research into this (I haven't based this on one article I read either it is more then that). You also have to take into account, I am a positive person. Meaning I always assume the best in people and let them see if they prove me otherwise. Same with China I assume they want to and are trying to at least change somewhat. Next to that, I do tend to be kind of Naive too, so if the media reports something some way, I am not one to immediately doubt it and go research it myself (I do not believe EVERYTHING I am being told, I mean, past 3 years the uni is trying to teach me to always critically think about information). The naive part is probably also due to the fact that I never really assume people to lie, which in itself is probably a naive outlook on people. Anyway, this is not about me.

[Noah]

I just want to say that this thread might hold a record for number of discussions to slide off-topic.

I don't have much to input on China.

Hot asian babes if from Japan and kekekeke Zerg Rush ^__^ is from Korea.

[Ayano]

This was the last time I advocated peace and reason to anyone.

To make up for my mistakes the next elections I will vote for the Wilders party.

That's no joke.

YOUR logic seems flawed because either you support them and it makes the world a better place or you support them and it makes the world a worse place. either you are a retard or you do believe your support will somehow magically make the world a safer place. But dont worry, just like you i also think Zerz assumed the wrong thing.

I give up on those who lack reason. I'm arguing with idiots.

[Zerzera]

I give up on those who lack reason. I'm arguing with idiots.

You are the biggest idiot. I hope you fucking die. hahahaha Go blow soldiers dick, I bet they love you for it.

PS: Shouldn't you be mourning the death of your imaginary boyfriend?

[Ayano]

Want a cookie?

[Fluffz]

give it up kiddo, this thread has more ice than you could handle.

[Ayano]

give it up kiddo, this thread has more ice than you could handle.

I gave up already buddy, If I were continuing i'd post more than a one phrase responce. Zerz is starcastically offensive so I thought I'd respond accordingly.. well without the disrespect.

[Zerzera]

well without the disrespect.

To tell someone you don't know you hope they fucking die might be respectful where you come from. You are a joke.