School Shooting in Tusby, Finland

[Kolar]

Crime overall has dropped in Canada, violent crime hasn't in recent years. A lot of it can be attributed to weapons being smuggled across the boarder from the states which is turning out to be a major problem for cities like Toronto. For Ontario at least I think we need more police to deal with gangs and laws that target youth crimes, heavy handed legislation has proven to be ineffective in the states so if we start dumping an unknown amount of tax dollars into building more prisons and locking people away for years for smoking some weed we wouldn't be better off. The police and RCMP need to be able to track ownership of weapons and there needs to be responsibility placed on the owner if lost, especially if it ends up being used to commit a crime and there's no reason for hand guns to be on the streets.

[Soilderz]

I think we all know that in Sweden there is alot assault on streets and overall gang-like fights. Many blame the amount of imigrants from Bosnia and Albania that Sweden takes in.

[Epinephrine]

edit: a little depth. I read a very interesting article 2 days ago by a psychologist who made some very interesting comments. She noted that the process of "fight-or-flight" is a process in which the brain, knowing it must act or think quickly, then reduces a bunch of otherwise complex and multiple ideas and concepts into a quick, two-choice step (in the case of "fight-or-flight", it's usually "stay" or "go", for example).

I thought about it for awhile and sure enough, the next day I went to open up the shop. On the way in I picked up the local paper on the doorstop and the headline was screaming something along the lines of "BUSH: PASS BAILOUT OR FACE DEEP RECESSION", and it struck me as odd - that out of all the infinite solutions and possibilities, it was that one, exact plan that would stave of a recession? I don't even think you have to be me to think that maybe, just maybe, the government hasn't exactly extensively mastered and studied this problem... and maybe, just maybe, this legislation is probably not 'the' solution. But it seems to be a trend Bush uses - and exploits - very well. Don't you remember "you're with us, or against us"?

I think the psychologist raised a very good point. She proposes that modern life has become so quick-paced that our brain, in the interest of saving time, tends to reduce otherwise complex things down to simple choices or concepts. It's the equivalent of using Wikipedia to try to learn about, say, Nietzsche - yeah you might get the basics, but there's so, so, so much more.

Not directly responding to you Jerome, just quoting what you said because it was very poignant. More guns in society = more people faced with situations where they have a split second to make, do I shoot the bad guy, or do I keep silent. All other options becomes less important because precisely of the fight or flight response.

Police departments, counterterrorism squads, and even the military do a lot of training in learning about when to shoot and when not to. Obviously in our example police departments are the best counterpoint, because they reflect civilian life the best. When even police officers are known to be too quick on the trigger and kill innocents from time to time even though they are specially trained professionals who only have guns when they are awake and on the job, why would we trust the potentially millions who could be carrying around guns at all times, in various states of mind (i.e. sleepy, drunk, high, in a foul mood) who do not have the same training, and who may make bad choices or just not be as good a shot under pressure as they are in a shooting range?

A lot of situations can be diffused without escalation to violence. The convenience store that gets robbed of a few hundred dollars may recover that to insurance or just absorb it. Meanwhile bystanders acting as cowboys may end up doing more harm than good, especially if their first shot isn't to kill and then the bad guy shoots them back or if other people get hit.

Furthermore, do you really want to be at school say, and if there's a heated argument to have teenagers with concealed weapons be the ones who decide on the outcome? Seriously??

[Squeezer]

Not directly responding to you Jerome, just quoting what you said because it was very poignant. More guns in society = more people faced with situations where they have a split second to make, do I shoot the bad guy, or do I keep silent. All other options becomes less important because precisely of the fight or flight response.

Police departments, counterterrorism squads, and even the military do a lot of training in learning about when to shoot and when not to. Obviously in our example police departments are the best counterpoint, because they reflect civilian life the best. When even police officers are known to be too quick on the trigger and kill innocents from time to time even though they are specially trained professionals who only have guns when they are awake and on the job, why would we trust the potentially millions who could be carrying around guns at all times, in various states of mind (i.e. sleepy, drunk, high, in a foul mood) who do not have the same training, and who may make bad choices or just not be as good a shot under pressure as they are in a shooting range?

A lot of situations can be diffused without escalation to violence. The convenience store that gets robbed of a few hundred dollars may recover that to insurance or just absorb it. Meanwhile bystanders acting as cowboys may end up doing more harm than good, especially if their first shot isn't to kill and then the bad guy shoots them back or if other people get hit.

Furthermore, do you really want to be at school say, and if there's a heated argument to have teenagers with concealed weapons be the ones who decide on the outcome? Seriously??

To add to your point too, I would much rather have those who are carrying guns to be trained in their use. I don't care for cops having guns, but at least they've been trained to use lethal force. That to me seems safer than arming the citizenry and telling them to watch out for each other.

[Galleleo]

I figured someone would bring that up, and it is a school shooting, but not in the sense of those in Finland or America. This was aimed for that teacher, not too shoot as much as you can and kill yourself.

Look, I am not trying to say its impossible to get a gun in the Netherlands, I am just saying that I am guessing its not as easy as in the US or Finland (if parents or parents friends own guns and stuff). If someone really wants to go someone else, or something like the school shootings, its bound to happen. But more guns is definitely not the answer IMO.

[Salubrious]

I figured someone would bring that up, and it is a school shooting, but not in the sense of those in Finland or America. This was aimed for that teacher, not too shoot as much as you can and kill yourself.

Look, I am not trying to say its impossible to get a gun in the Netherlands, I am just saying that I am guessing its not as easy as in the US or Finland (if parents or parents friends own guns and stuff). If someone really wants to go someone else, or something like the school shootings, its bound to happen. But more guns is definitely not the answer IMO.

A school shooting is a school shooting is a school shooting.

By your argument, if an American student were to bring a gun and try to shoot down every Latino janitorial staff member at their school, it would only be a hate crime and not a school shooting? If a shooting occurs at a school, then it is a school shooting, regardless of the circumstances, targets, country of origin, etc.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

This debate is getting old fast...

I still think you're completely wrong, but whatever, Roberto.

[Galleleo]

I said it is a school shooting, all I said was that this was aimed at 1 person (not out of hate crime or whatever, just because of something that happened between that teacher and that student) instead of the kind of school shootings in the US and Finland. It is still a school shooting, still a tragedy and still fucked up.

[Cops]

so wait a second I live in a shit hole?

[Zerzera]

A school shooting is a school shooting is a school shooting.

No it's not, it's a single murder that happened to take place in a school. Not a classic killing spree, the motives are totally different, it just isn't the same. But nice try.

[Mantra-Slider]

I read your articles jerome and it was very entertaining. specially at the end with quotes like "Of course, anyone who is familiar with modern Sweden knows that the people find their lives heavily regulated, from heavy taxes to the imprisonment of pastors who say "politically incorrect" things from their pulpits."
Im not even gonna go into that but Im curious why you link these articles to the statistics you posted?

[DankNuggets]

No it's not, it's a single murder that happened to take place in a school. Not a classic killing spree, the motives are totally different, it just isn't the same. But nice try.

well in the context of the argument for/agaisnt concealed weapons, specifically in schools and with teachers, it is the same: more guns in the school wouldn't have helped. If that teacher had a gun, and missed, it would cause the same collateral damage as a kid randomly shooting up the school. the motives may be different, but the relevance to the argument is still there.


There are some misconceptions here:

1) - I don't know if it's done differently in other states, but it is NOT easy to get a carry/conceal permit.
1a) -You DO have to be extremely accurate, but you could use a small pistol you're comfortable with to shoot the targets. I know several people who have applied for the permit, and all have gotten it. They're all good shooters, and they've said that a good many people fail to get the permit on these grounds alone.
1b) - they perform background checks to make sure you're not a criminal, or someone who otherwise might endanger others with a gun. It's by no means fool-proof, but they don't give them to people who appear to want to cause trouble.
1c) - Pretty soon, you won't even be able to get one, or it will be a lot harder. I'm not really sure of the specifics, but this was the impetus for my uncle and two people from my office to get theirs recently. they wanted it because they're afraid that soon, you won't have the option to get one.

2) - Guns aren't the only weapons you can't carry on you. With a few exceptions in local laws (like if you're hunting or fishing) you can't have a weapon on you period, gun or w/e. Whoever was talking about having a 6 1/2 inch combat knife on their belt is in violation of weapon laws (might vary in ea. state, but i'm pretty sure combat knives are illegal everywhere). As a matter of fact, anything over 1.5 inches (used to be 3 in) is considered a weapon, and you could be arrested for it (my friend arrested walking down teh street with a 3 in pocket knife in his pocket). What's so confusing about this is you can go into fucking Wal-Mart and buy a machete. I did that at 17, and was almost arrested 2 days later for carrying it on my way to the woods near my house. I had a good reason for carrying it, but the cop who drove past me thought I was up to no good so he hassled me. I asked him if he would have messed with me in the Wal-Mart parking lot where I bought the damn thing, but he pulled the old "Well I could take you downtown.." bit so I just dropped it.

3) You really can't have concealed weapons in places like schools. In fact, a lot of the "hero" scenarios you're coming up with aren't possible with the current gun laws. You're pretty much just protecting yourself and those immediately around you when you have a concealment permit.

4) There's no argument that will convince me that a person who's passed the classes and earned the permit would be more dangerous with his gun than a potential serial killer or lunatic. It's just not based on logic. yes there are more bullets, but it's understood that they're going to be flying directly at you from the shooter if there's no one there to stop him. otherwise, they're strays. Do you want to take your chances on strays or bullets aimed between your eyes?



All that being said, I think it should be pretty hard to get permit, and that not a lot of them should be handed out. I'm also in favor of restricting where they are: I don't want a concealed weapon at a concert or library or anywhere where there's just too many bystanders who could get hurt. Also, these are semiautomatic pistols we're talking about: they might not be as accurate as hunting rifles, but they're certainly not spraying bullets into a crowd.