fitna

[Epinephrine]

A movie called fitna was just released in Holland. Watch it at:

www.liveleak.com

From what I understand, it's made by some politician who's a party leader in Holland. Those of you from that part of the world, what reaction has there been to this?

I saw the first half of the movie, and it seemed much less controversial than Heavensent's wacko conspiracy videos, but then again people here aren't 'most people'.

[Mantra-Slider]

mmm was the biggest thing on the news here today, that and a possible boycott of the olympics due to the chinese violence in tibet. the polish primeminster was the first leader who officially suggested a boycott today I think. EU will probably discuss it any time soon.

mad world

anyways back to the movie, I laughed when the following text was displayed:
In 1945. nazism was defeated in Europe.
In 1989. Communism was defeated in Europe.
Now, the islamic ideology has to be defeated.

sums up the movie pretty good. Its called propaganda

[Reaver]

I've never read the Quran (Koran?) nor had a copy of it, I was wondering if anyone knew if the quotes taken from it in this "documentary" are accurate?

For example, does it say "therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them." I'm just curious if these are accurate translations or if they're even in the Quran at all. Not that I doubt it, was just looking for some additional sources.

[HeavenSent]

I've never read the Quran (Koran?) nor had a copy of it, I was wondering if anyone knew if the quotes taken from it in this "documentary" are accurate?

For example, does it say "therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them." I'm just curious if these are accurate translations or if they're even in the Quran at all. Not that I doubt it, was just looking for some additional sources.

Page 506
When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. ...

[Birthday Party]

The University of Southern California Muslim Student Association puts up the three famous English translation of the Quran on their site: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ That's the site to use when you want an easy way to look up Islamic texts.

I watched a little bit of Fitna, but it seemed pretty boring: All stuff I've seen before in some capacity. I think Islamic expansionism is a problem for the West as it has been for centuries and I don't think Western governments should make concessions for the sake of multiculturalism; but I also think one has to be careful not to demonise Muslims because you wouldn't want to create an environment where there would be a violent backlash against Muslims because they are people just as non-Muslims are. Western societies should compete with Islamic society in good deeds and not in bad.

[Mantra-Slider]

I was under the impression that there are equally stupid/retarded/gay/horrifying quotes in the bible. Just wait till someone does a movie about the bible in response to this, like they did with the mohammed cartoons

[FarScape]

I was under the impression that there are equally stupid/retarded/gay/horrifying quotes in the bible. Just wait till someone does a movie about the bible in response to this, like they did with the mohammed cartoons

And how stupid is that? since the Muslims believe in the bible too. -_-
The bible has a very shocking moments but I don't recall it saying "Destroy those who doesn't believe in it". Its just an history book with some laws.

Anyway, the movie show facts about the extreme Muslims that live in our world. Its sad he took it to a war against Islam rather than those who are extreme. Yet, does a religion like Islam wont always have those who are very extreme and read the Koran and Sharia by what it says exactly? who knows...

I know it might sound bad, but many here in my country believe that Europe, that have now according to the film 54 million Muslims, are going to have a lot of troubles with that. Its not that every man or woman who believe in the Islam is a threat, but you don't know what they preach in their mosques or what Organizations work in their community (police and intelligence forces gonna have work here )

Its a fact that in the 90s and till now, most of the conflicts around the world are involve with Muslims. The movie show why is that, and there is no lies there.
Its funny tho. I said it not long ago that Islamic newspapers show caricatures about Jewish people, how for example from the last clashes in Gaza, show that Jews drink the blood of the Palestinians. Thats o.k I guess...
But to release a film that show facts (saying it propaganda for the cause of fighting Islam might be true, but he didn't made things up) is of course racist, will harm the harmony of the world, and I bet he will soon get killed.

[Zerzera]

This is nothing different from what the Bush administration did. It's propaganda, it spreads hate, it prepares for war.

Religion isn't a problem, it's the intensity of belief amongst the population. Do you really think a moderate Muslim would ever oppress Christians or Atheists? All this film does, is attacking Muslims, making them more fierce about what they stand for. Which is a bad thing to do in any case.

[FarScape]

This is nothing different from what the Bush administration did. It's propaganda, it spreads hate, it prepares for war.

Religion isn't a problem, it's the intensity of belief amongst the population. Do you really think a moderate Muslim would ever oppress Christians or Atheists? All this film does, is attacking Muslims, making them more fierce about what they stand for. Which is a bad thing to do in any case.

No. The problem is religion.

Anyway, if you were living here you would absorb much more hate like what you saw on this film. Maybe this is why the lack of understand of western people who don't see those things near them. Do you even realize that Iran is actually a whole nation who is leaded by religious tyranny that believe in this way? and the terror groups that fight here in the middle-east, you think their motives are not coming from the quotes you saw in that movie?

He try to show you a side to the face of what is growing in Europe. Don't be so naive to think everything is clean in your continent.

[TagMor]

[Vergilius]

What are you trying to say with that pic?
Children spread the light of Jesus Christ by giving him an erection?

[Zerzera]

A nevermind, fuck the propaganda. Not even worth discussing.

[Birthday Party]

One thing I think about sometimes is why Islam exists. Believers say that the angel Gabriel came down from heaven and delivered the Koran to Mohammed and that was essentially its beginning, although they say also there were other prophets far before the time of Mohammed (Isa, Musa, etc).

I read this book Hagarism, published in the 70's, by Patricia Crone. There, she theorised that the Koran and Islam evolved over time from the early 7th century into the 8th under the influence of a number of rulers of the then expanding Arabic empire which came to be known as the Islamic Caliphate. She thought that the religion evolved in response to this empire and the needs of the rulers to justify the actions and dominion of the empire in the hearts of its subjects. So she denies any supernatural genesis of the religion and even doesn't give a special status to Mohammed as a crafter of the religion but only as a major contributor to it. I guess this is related to one of the things Wilders has been saying: how he says Islam is inherently violent. Crone wasn't saying that, but only that justifying violence was part of the original reason for the birth of Islam.

I think I tend to agree with Crone's main idea; it gives a reasonable explanation anyway, whereas the angel coming down from heaven is a little too fantastic for my tastes. Maybe there is a better explanation though.

[EnFlAmE]

Its just a cheap propaganda movie. Sure its scary that certain people believe that everybody that doesn't follow the rules of the sharia is insulting islam but I'm just not under the impression every muslim shares that idea.
Its funny how he showed the dramatic increase of muslims in the Netherlands as some kind of invasion but the facts are that a lot of them came here after the WW2 because we needed them too help us with rebuilding our economy. I understand that 54 million might look scary but on a population of 497 million it doesn't look like that much. Especialy if you take into consideration not every muslim here is a fundemental freakshow that wants to kill every non muslim.

Furthermore the situation we have here is very diffrent from the situation in isreal and the middle-east. Sure we have some integrational problems with certain groups of muslims but overall you could say that a large majority don't cause any problems and have adepted to our way of living while keeping their own identity. I live 1 block away from a mosque but I've never had any problems with anyone, on the contrary, the imam always greets me cause I once gave him directions.

[Dabram]

I'm glad to say I can agree with the other Dutchies (Zerz/ Enflame) who've so far responded in this thread.

Plus I can't stand how much attention the media is giving to this douchebag Wilders. It's almost as they can't understand THEY'RE the ones who're blowing this story up. People who aren't able to use their brain very well should be mostly ignored by the media. Freedom of speech is a nice good to have and which should be protected, but in the West freedom of speech has become freedom to be a retard and insult and offend people with different beliefs with completely wrong assumptions. And the media, especially in Holland, hasn't got much to talk about anyway, god I hate these pretentious intellectual talkshows who struggle to find something new to talk about day in day out, so whenever some idiot politician screams something retarded they jump up in happiness. Fuck them.

Also I can't feel sorry for people like Wilders when they get threatened. What the fuck did they expect for being offensive dumb fucks? Same goes for that Danish cartoonist, his cartoon wasn't funny or clever, just plain offensive. Nice one.
Same goes for Theo van Gogh, I found him extremely annoying when he was alive, and he basically got what was coming to him. Harsh? Maybe a little. :P

If you just use your freedom of speech to be offensive, I don't see any reason why the government should protect your security.

It's of course very okay and important that there are people out there who are critical about another person/culture/group/country/politics whatever, but only when you do it in a cultured / scientific way..

Ps.

Farscape, just because an Islamic newspaper posts a cartoon with a jew drinking the blood from a Palestina, doesn't mean it's justified to respond in a similar fashion. As 'burden' of being the 'civilized' / developed world, it should be your duty to act accordingly; and try to understand what the grievances from groups who are lesser of than you are, and try to come to a solution that actually helps them and takes away this tension..
I'm not much of a fan of the monologue/debating-style with which the West approaches every problem. Dialogue (which means actually listening and trying to understand the other party) might be more intensive, but it's probably the only way to first take some of the tensions away from very difficult problems, which is necessary before you even start to think about possible solutions.