(british) healthcare

[Jerome Scuggs]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

looks like a government powerful enough to guarantee universal health care, is powerful enough to deny you health care. we'll be here soon enough!

[Reaver]

bump

[DankNuggets]

its sad but everything comes with a price tag

i wonder can they still seek private treatment (like here in US?)

[Jerome Scuggs]

its sad but everything comes with a price tag

i wonder can they still seek private treatment (like here in US?)

the only sad part is the harm that has come about by the delusion that things DON'T come with a price tag - like free healthcare. it's a myth, a legend, a pipe dream, a red herring.

an increasing trend in europe is to fly to a place with cheap healthcare - places like india, where there is still a relatively free market and therefore lower prices.

[Singularity]

The situation above is almost the dutch situation as well. Germany however, has in addition to its "free" healthcare also private clinics were you can get surgery and w/e medication needed, but, ofcourse, isn't free anymore. That seems to be a good system, considering many dutch people go to germany to get it done in those clinics.

[Kolar]

the only sad part is the harm that has come about by the delusion that things DON'T come with a price tag - like free healthcare. it's a myth, a legend, a pipe dream, a red herring.

an increasing trend in europe is to fly to a place with cheap healthcare - places like india, where there is still a relatively free market and therefore lower prices.

No one is under that delusion. I know that a good part of my taxes go into the health care system. That system has its limits like any health care system, the difference is that it has a legal obligation to provide me the care written down on paper, and if they want to deny me that care I have more then just a civil (legal) option as I can petition the Government and my direct representative. There's horror stories about those going to a hospital and being turned away because their insurance won't cover it or they're told to go to another hospital. Stuff like this shouldn't happen just like the stuff you posted. Find some figures on a non-universal system and compare it to this before you rush to a conclusion.

[Ewan]

The situation above is almost the dutch situation as well. Germany however, has in addition to its "free" healthcare also private clinics were you can get surgery and w/e medication needed, but, ofcourse, isn't free anymore. That seems to be a good system, considering many dutch people go to germany to get it done in those clinics.

We have private clinics here in Britain too.

[Jerome Scuggs]

No one is under that delusion.

Then you're under the delusion that there is no such thing as time. Have you ever dealt with the government? You speak in terms of weeks, months, and even years - if medical problems and disease were that slow than I guess you've got a fighting chance. And even if you survive to make it to court... well, you then have to convince them they're wrong, since it was the government in the first place who made the decision. And then you come back to the fact that the government can't afford to help you. Argue this point as much as you want, it still doesn't change reality, which is... that the government stopped paying for those medical services because they couldn't afford it.

But then again, maybe they will help you. You'll just have to gamble on your assumption that your government is run by truly enlightened individuals who care more about you than politics. Which, once again, is up for argument, but, once again, it doesn't change reality, which is: the government stopped paying for the medical services because they couldn't afford it.

I guess in a sick twisted way... it is sort of efficient. I mean, I'm so scared shitless of what will happen if I wind up in a hospital that I now pay more attention to my health.

As far as figures... well, we've had this discussion. In a free market, there is no 'legal obligation' except contracts. If a firm fails to honor a contract - ie insurance payouts - then the case will be taken up by an arbiting party (in a pure free market) or the government legal system (in a limited-government free market). Universal healthcare is justified on the premise that it will help everyone, regardless... and it doesn't. I can't show you figures proving that free market medicine is statistically "better", because there hasn't been a truly free market system yet that we can watch... unless you count Somalia, whose accidental free market has made it, ironically, the best place to live in Africa as far as many things, including healthcare. So yeah, I'd say it works. Hell, if anything - if fucking Somalians can figure it out, why can't we?

[Kolar]

How is that any different then dealing with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay? I of course would pay for private service while litigation runs its course, my only point was that it is not my only potential course of action when dealing with a universal system. Perhaps for both as you could petition your Congressman, Senator or State Governor about the issue but in reality that is less likely to produce any results being a free market. It's no different then an insurance agreement, they agree to pay for specific services and products. Beyond that you're on your own, like with dental care and other things.

[Jerome Scuggs]

How is that any different then dealing with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay? I of course would pay for private service while litigation runs its course, my only point was that it is not my only potential course of action when dealing with a universal system. Perhaps for both as you could petition your Congressman, Senator or State Governor about the issue but in reality that is less likely to produce any results being a free market. It's no different then an insurance agreement, they agree to pay for specific services and products. Beyond that you're on your own, like with dental care and other things.

Because the insurance company and I entered into a specific agreement over specific services, whereas the government passed a law that I didn't have anything to do with - and it can easily be repealed, changed, and modified without my consent... as the people in the news articles I posted found out.

When it boils down to it, the same things happen in both systems, except in your system, the individual is the least important part of the process, and there is no guarantee of service - the very two things the government promised. You could argue this, but once again, I'm pulling the "reality" card. But if an insurance company deliberately goes back on a contract that I and the firm both agreed to - then there is a completely justifiable reason to claim damages and treatment. If you want to buy into yet another delusion that your government won't strip you of your life, liberty and property as it sees fit, then once again... I live in America. Try to convince me that governments will always do exactly what they promise to do.

[Kolar]

If I lived in Communist Russia maybe but I live in Canada, a Constitutional Democracy. I think if anything stories like the ones you posted tells us to take command of our personal health, our life. So you signed an agreement with a company, which they can violate and give you the run around on services legally they owe to you. There is no difference between the two, only that a public system has a legal responsibility (read: criminal) if services are not provided to me. Do any CEOs of lets say Kaiser get carted off for violating health and safety regulations, for denying services and contract agreements resulting in dead Americans?


There is a guarantee of service, the Federal Government provides funding to the Provinces which provide the direct service and administrative duties. Changes to the Health Act (which could have a negative effect on the service provided) is not a goal of any current political party in Canada and if it were you can bet a referendum or at least some kind of super majority would be required to make changes to it.

This is a service based system, the individual customer is always the most important individual under consideration, public or private.

In both a public and private system you have to be a conscious and informed individual, not a brain dead slob or a mouch. The public-private issue is more a cost savings and efficiencies debate, it's not about service provided or service denied.

[Epinephrine]

the only sad part is the harm that has come about by the delusion that things DON'T come with a price tag - like free healthcare. it's a myth, a legend, a pipe dream, a red herring.

an increasing trend in europe is to fly to a place with cheap healthcare - places like india, where there is still a relatively free market and therefore lower prices.

And the sad part under the delusion of private healthcare is that is costs 2x as much, and 48 million people in the USA receive none at all.

[Mr. Peanuts]

It's a joke. We have this 'free' healthcare system where people are being turned down help because it's 'too expensive' despite being tax paying citizens, and we have fat MPs getting everything subsidised from tax payer's money. The cost of petrol is rising, where more than half of what you pay for it is taxed, MPs can claim that back from the government as expenses, citing a rise in the cost of living. They have upped the tax on so many things once again. Most surprisingly spirits, which is what they all drink (shows because it hasn't risen for about 10 years). Doesn't matter for them in the heavily subsidised bars at the Houses of Parliament I suppose.

Here's a list of what our MPs can claim, all at the tax payer's expense, despite being on six-figure salaries:

Air conditioning unit - £299.99

Bed - £1,000.00

Bedside cabinet - £100.00

Bookcase/shelf - £200.00

Bookcase/cabinet - £500.00

Carpet - £35.00 per square metre

Carpet fitting - £6.50 per square metre

Coffee maker/machine - £100.00

Coffee table - £250.00

Dining armchairs (each) - £150.00

Dining chairs (each) - £90.00

Dining table - £600.00

Dishwasher - £375.00

Drawer chest (five) - £500.00

Dressing table - £500.00

Dry cleaning - both personal and household [items] are allowable within reasonable limits

Food mixer - £200.00

Freestanding mirror - £300.00

Fridge/freezer combi - £550.00

Gas cooker - £650.00

Hi-fi/stereo - £750.00

Installation of new bathroom - £6,335.00

Installation of new kitchen - £10,000.00

Lamp table - £200.00

Nest of tables - £200.00

Recordable DVD - £270.00

Rugs (each) - £300.00

Shredder - £50.00

Sideboard - £795.00

Suite of furniture - £2,000.00

Television set - £750.00

Tumble dryer - £250.00

Underlay (basic) - £6.99 per square metre

Wardrobe - £700.00

Washer dryer - £500.00

Washing machine - £350.00

Wooden flooring/carpets - £35.00 per square metre

Workstation - £150.00

Surely, we can do them for living off state benefit and working at the same time? Bunch of parasites. And as for 'going green', what a load of rubbish, we'd never see Gordon Brown or his buddy Darling driving around in a Nissan Micra.

Who wants to work for a living? It's a mug's game.

[Galleleo]

Jerome, difference is, Insurance company's have tons of ways to legally get out from under the contract you signed. Making the treatment needed experimental in their eyes for example.

We work with insurance company's in a partly privatised market, but for anything basic everyone is insured and help cant be denied. Sure, there are prob cases to be found in the Netherlands too where it went wrong or where people did get denied or whatever. But from the outset, EVERYONE is insured and EVERYONE has a right to get helped.

TONS of Americans don't even have that. Tons know they wont get helped, or wont be able to pay for it.

And sing, I am sure there are private clinics in the Netherlands too.

[Jerome Scuggs]

And the sad part under the delusion of private healthcare is that is costs 2x as much, and 48 million people in the USA receive none at all.

yes, "none at all". way to make your point. since your experience seems to be repeatedly coming back to the fact that you're in the medical sector, here's two guys who are smarter than you to tell you you're wrong, and then a third one about the prices. other than that, i really don't feel like arguing about this because it's not the point and you're not british. we've been through it and if you'd like to get my views on the point, you know where the thread is