(british) healthcare

[Jerome Scuggs]

Jerome, difference is, Insurance company's have tons of ways to legally get out from under the contract you signed.

But, what business has ever stayed profitable by denying people service? You forget, the reason people go into business is to make money. Whereas with government, its existence is not predicated upon service - it justifies its own existence with coercion and violence. It can deny you service, and still force you to pay it taxes.

And for the record - I am in no way defending the American healthcare system. I live here and I will tell you that it is not a "free market". Everything you say about our system is correct - it is shitty - but you're getting your cause and effect messed up. We're where England was before they decided to fix the "free market" problem, by nationalizing.

It's a parallel to what's happening with our money, too. See how the Fed has caused this entire crisis? Well... guess what they announced today? They want to give the Fed more power. Everything government touches, it destroys - healthcare, welfare, financial markets, you name it.

[Epinephrine]

yes, "none at all". way to make your point. since your experience seems to be repeatedly coming back to the fact that you're in the medical sector, here's two guys who are smarter than you to tell you you're wrong, and then a third one about the prices. other than that, i really don't feel like arguing about this because it's not the point and you're not british. we've been through it and if you'd like to get my views on the point, you know where the thread is

Lol. Yes I'm completely wrong, millions of Americans actually do get healthcare even though they don't have insurance.... riiiiight. Jerome you and your right wing blog are so much smarter than me lol.

You're arguing apples and oranges. Yes there are SOME people who get screwed even in the public system, but the vast majority of people have healthcare and can go to the doctor anytime they need. In the private system, a significant minority won't have any real access at all.

For every anecdote you can give about some person who went to a private clinic because they were frustrated with the public system, you can find 10 more people who were denied entry into a hospital because they had no insurance in the USA, and in basically any other only private system that exists in the world. Yes the USA isn't totally private, that's why people can still go to ERs if say they get shot or something... but in a totally completely private system, obviously even those people are left out. It's called common sense.

You can go hugging your subprime mortgage crisis causing Alan Greenspan all the way to the bottom of the recession lol!

[Cops]

And the sad part under the delusion of private healthcare is that is costs 2x as much, and 48 million people in the USA receive none at all.

I've got to agree, there's holes in both systems but when you look at the fact that so many Americans receive 'no health care' it's kind of shocking. Sure things aren't perfect but at least we cover the costs of those who couldn't afford it, and doing so we're able to lower costs per capita.

[Cops]

yes, "none at all". way to make your point. since your experience seems to be repeatedly coming back to the fact that you're in the medical sector, here's two guys who are smarter than you to tell you you're wrong, and then a third one about the prices.

Aren't the people you're sourcing from the medical sector as well? Mark R. Crovelli is actually a graduate student but the other two are M.Ds. Attacking people's intelligence isn't the best way to debate something, you should just drop the Universal Health Care issue.

[genocidal]

I've got to agree, there's holes in both systems but when you look at the fact that so many Americans receive 'no health care' it's kind of shocking. Sure things aren't perfect but at least we cover the costs of those who couldn't afford it, and doing so we're able to lower costs per capita.

Epi and others keep spouting that same statistic, "48 million in America have no health care." This couldn't be further from the truth - that is unless you define "health care" as an insurance policy. It is not like 48 million people get sick everyday and are just fucked. What do you think happens when an uninsured person breaks their arm or has a heart attack? Do you think they go "oh well I have no health care so I better just ride this one out?" No, they go to the emergency room and get health care.

The problem with our system isn't that they aren't covered and not being treated it's that these people use the ER as their personal clinic as opposed to going to a doctor and therefore create huge waiting problems with the ER. ERs around the nation are strapped because this is what's happening. So yes, they are getting covered in America and yes, there are problems with how it's working just like in Britain and Canda.

[Singularity]

Fallacy is the way to go I've found

[Cops]

Epi and others keep spouting that same statistic, "48 million in America have no health care." This couldn't be further from the truth - that is unless you define "health care" as an insurance policy. It is not like 48 million people get sick everyday and are just fucked. What do you think happens when an uninsured person breaks their arm or has a heart attack? Do you think they go "oh well I have no health care so I better just ride this one out?" No, they go to the emergency room and get health care.

The problem with our system isn't that they aren't covered and not being treated it's that these people use the ER as their personal clinic as opposed to going to a doctor and therefore create huge waiting problems with the ER. ERs around the nation are strapped because this is what's happening. So yes, they are getting covered in America and yes, there are problems with how it's working just like in Britain and Canda.

What's the 'other' option eliminating government regulation and government involvement?

[Jerome Scuggs]

fuck it. i really do not like to do this... but you guys are morons.

first, this is a topic about british healthcare, i'm tired of dealing with the issue of canadian healthcare because, quite frankly, canada does have it pretty well together - but then again, so did england ten years ago. i'll return to the canadian debate in a few years, perhaps, when the ramifications of your policies come full circle and begin piling up... look at America today, and look how we got here, and you'll quickly figure out what i mean.

second, there's no point to arguing. i say "universal healthcare sucks", and then you guys don't really respond - you just say "yeah, well, USA's sucks too!". i find this highly annoying because the united states does. not. have. a. free. market. system. it is broken; a victim of government regulation except in a different form - merely a highly un-organized, rinky-dink model of socialized healthcare - the only thing we're missing is the creation of a centralized, universal health institution.

so all i'm gonna do is ask the canadians to show me two things: a model of how a pure, unregulated free market works... and a model of how the current US system works. prove me wrong... prove that the US healthcare sector is an example of the commonly-held economic definition of a "free market". word of warning: have fun explaining how government-mandated licensing boards and HMO's are free-market.

[Cops]

have fun explaining how government-mandated licensing boards and HMO's are free-market.

I agree with you they're not.

But you basically want to eliminate government regulation and government involvement and let the market set our prices on healthcare.

[Kolar]

second, there's no point to arguing. i say "universal healthcare sucks", and then you guys don't really respond - you just say "yeah, well, USA's sucks too!". i find this highly annoying because the united states does. not. have. a. free. market. system. it is broken;

First give me some numbers comparing a public system, and the Canadian and UK model are both very different and you would notice if you took 3 seconds from jerking off on your libertarian piece of shit blog, and compare it to one that exists within a free market and don't be so stupid about it. There are many different models and parts of each system which are good and bad and there are many examples and stories of each which do little to help quantify each. If you can't do that then explain the US system in detail then explain the model you would like implemented, cut the drama out of it.

And for the last fucking time, and I'm considering removing this shit if it continues, SOCIALIZED medicine IS NOT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

[Squeezer]

I don't really want to argue this and risk being called a moron, but I must assert that there has never really been a free market in this country.

Politics have always controlled this economy and the "prestigious" will always reap the benefits.

[Cops]

That was the big argument in the last thread, that there is no such thing as a free market and there never will be. Allowing your health care to be left in the hands of big box capitalists is worse than leaving it in the hands of the government.

Eliminating government regulation and government involvement just gives the companies more power to do what they do best, which is make money. I can hold my politicians accountable for what they do with my money but I can't necessarily hold a corporation accountable for decreasing services and increasing costs.

I think we can all agree that both systems have flaws. Until a better idea is proposed on how to solve the healthcare problem in America I can't really say that deregulating government involvement of health care is a lot better than Universal Healthcare. I believe in corporate responsibility, it is a lot easier to hold an individual responsible.

[Squeezer]

^Especially when the Government and major representatives of the "free market" are largely the same group of people.

I'm sure they'll gladly look out for our health!

[Cops]

This is where the thread takes an idealogical turn Squeezer, if anyone thinks that corporations give a flying fuck about them then there's something wrong with them. Corporations exist to make shareholders money, you don't make money by handing out extra or better services.

[Jerome Scuggs]

First give me some numbers comparing a public system, and the Canadian and UK model are both very different and you would notice if you took 3 seconds from jerking off on your libertarian piece of shit blog, and compare it to one that exists within a free market and don't be so stupid about it. There are many different models and parts of each system which are good and bad and there are many examples and stories of each which do little to help quantify each. If you can't do that then explain the US system in detail then explain the model you would like implemented, cut the drama out of it.

And for the last fucking time, and I'm considering removing this shit if it continues, SOCIALIZED medicine IS NOT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

i know full and well the two are different models, which is why i asked the canadians to stop posting. when i state they will both fail, i am discussing the general ideology behind both systems, which is government intervention - the same reason the Fed's fucked up the economy and welfare has fucked up the standard of living.

as far as lew rockwell, the "shitty blog", it's actually a news site ran by, well, lew rockwell, who merely posts pieces written by scholars at the mises institute. if you want a shitty blog, go scour livejournal. these guys are economists, doctors, bankers - a cornucopia of various intellectuals with very good insight. yeah i link 'em alot, but that's because the blog does a very good job of centralizing most libertarian thought on the internet.

as far as the "numbers" you ask for... well, you have my hands tied. first you tell me that no free market has ever existed and then you ask me to give numbers comparing the two. i guess the closest i can do is let you read this article, which is not from lew rockwell. i wish i could provide more examples besides somalia, but the article is very well-written, and it provides such a clear example, considering the failed wave of "african socialism".

edit: oh yeah, and you can go ahead and remove any references to "socialized health care", if you want. that sort of censorship is very indicative of socialist politics, i wouldn't expect any less.