(british) healthcare

[Kolar]

this 'extremist' view of mine is a nobel-prize winning view. it's also, as eph pointed out, a very 'natural' view. is darwin an extremist too?

No we don't apply Darwinism to real life, learn what social Darwinism is. Just because an economic view can be describe as 'natural' doesn't mean it is better. People have used such ideas to justify genocide, torture and murder of human beings. People are left out in the cold in Darwinism (and rightly so. Evolution must be served but it isn't an artificial process, it is without compassion or forethought) just as in a system I think you would like implemented, and I think if people understood truly where you're coming from they would be disgusted by it.

The reason why no one is responding to your point about the stories of people being left out or denied in a public system is because simply people are in both. BUT it doesn't help quantify the issues of why or how that happened and what if anything is to be done about it. It merely provides sensationalism without substance to the discussion.

Btw: learn to copy and paste. Don't post multiple replies in succession. And Cops and Epi were replying to point out the fact that you are a heartless fuck, I might believe it but try to reply to the right people next time, reading what they say would be a good start.

[Jerome Scuggs]

People have used such ideas to justify genocide, torture and murder of human beings.

Please explain this one, since every genocide in history was at the hands of governments championing social policies - like Germany and the African Socialists (edit: and none at the hands of businesses!)

Btw: learn to copy and paste. Don't post multiple replies in succession. And Cops and Epi were replying to point out the fact that you are a heartless fuck, I might believe it but try to reply to the right people next time, reading what they say would be a good start.

I'd like to also hear the specific reasons as to why I'm heartless. How heartless would you say I am? So heartless I would deny a dying woman life-saving surgery?

edit: oh, and kolar, you don't have to apply darwinism to life... but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. your politics are very dis-illusioned.

[Jerome Scuggs]

how caring for anyone besides yourself is viewed as nothing more than being a socialist.

no. as a libertarian, i believe you should be free to d what you want. if YOU want to pay for MY upcoming surgery in fifteen days (i have melanoma), feel free!

what i disagree with is FORCING people to do something. at the core of socialist politics, is coercion. i'm not against giving everyone healthcare, i'm against forcing people into it. and then there's the economic infeasability, etc etc.

i'm beginning to see, more and more, that you guys don't quite grasp the full scope of this debate - metaphysical, physical, etc. it's confusing me.

[Cops]

this is all i needed to hear from you, thanks. now please read my first post.

I read your articles and the only solution they offered is deregulating government involvement and letting the 'free market' take control of healthcare.

1) There's no such thing as a free market

2) Letting the markets and big business look after our healthcare is a terrible idea to start with because obviously corporations and companies don't care about anything other than making money, and secondly deregulating laws and standards that are put in place to make sure these businesses don't abuse their power is just going to completly corrupt businesses and corporations so they can do whatever the fuck they want.

[Kolar]

Nazi Germany.

Heartless as in you don't give a shit about people. I think you're so disconnected from people all of this libertarian stuff you're eating up is making you even more disconnected. I'm not saying it isn't ok to think about yourself in terms of quality of life but health care is an issue that has to go beyond selfishness, it's about providing the best care to the most people. I really would like to see some convincing arguments and so far you have nothing, really nothing at all that shows a private system operates better. You can't make fundamental changes to systems like health care without having a substantive and solid idea on how well it will function, better put you can't run with theories when it means the life or death of your people. I believe a public system is proven to provide good quality of care to a lot of people which is sustainable, if you disagree provide something besides "well socialisms is this, or free market blah blah blah".

[Jerome Scuggs]

and secondly deregulating laws and standards that are put in place to make sure these businesses don't abuse their power is just going to completly corrupt businesses and corporations so they can do whatever the fuck they want.

like... denying a dying woman surgery?

[Cops]

no. as a libertarian, i believe you should be free to d what you want. if YOU want to pay for MY upcoming surgery in fifteen days (i have melanoma), feel free!

what i disagree with is FORCING people to do something. at the core of socialist politics, is coercion. i'm not against giving everyone healthcare, i'm against forcing people into it. and then there's the economic infeasability, etc etc.

i'm beginning to see, more and more, that you guys don't quite grasp the full scope of this debate - metaphysical, physical, etc. it's confusing me.

As a libertarian you believe that the world should exist much differently than it does, realpolitik.

I don't think you've given any examples of how a system works better than Universal Healthcare, you've already said insurance companies don't work, so please do tell me how letting corporations run rampant on the markets will improve your healthcare? Not only that but you're taking away any oversight the government may have to control these corporations.

[Cops]

like... denying a dying woman surgery?

Like raising costs and lowering quality of service, using techniques and tools that are out of date. Hiring workers from foreign countries that have no accreditation to practice medicine in this country, why hire an American or Canadian M.D when a supposed Mexican doctor can work for $15 an hour.

I can lobby my government to make changes and vote in different people to increase or better my services in my country that has Universal Healthcare but I can't lobby a corporation do dick all about what it does, it's called balancing power and without government regulation corporations will abuse their power more than they already do.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I'm not saying it isn't ok to think about yourself in terms of quality of life but health care is an issue that has to go beyond selfishness, it's about providing the best care to the most people.

So in Africa, where the free market has provided better healthcare than the socialist regimes' failed policies... you don't see a lesson in that? no?

I really would like to see some convincing arguments and so far you have nothing, really nothing at all that shows a private system operates better.

yeah, i do... mainly, that the healthcare crisis in america virtually parallels rising levels of government regulation.

You can't make fundamental changes to systems like health care without having a substantive and solid idea on how well it will function

obviously you can, because the government took a system that was functioning and destroyed it. kolar, you should really learn to... chill. the fascination with government mirrors the inner human desire for control and power, and people tend to fear the unplanned. it sounds crazy, but if you let people just exist in society, they'll find a way. i believe that's some law of thermodynamics. you don't have to believe in it... but that doesn't mean it's not real and it doesn't affect us.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I can lobby my government to make changes and vote in different people to increase or better my services in my country that has Universal Healthcare but I can't lobby a corporation do dick all about what it does, it's called balancing power and without government regulation corporations will abuse their power more than they already do.

you're absolutely right. corporations that sell shitty products never go out of business, and also murder people for no reason. whereas governments listen to the people and always obey things like 'balance of power'.

i'm wrong, i've seen the light. i now advocate universal healthcare... jesus. i'm stupid.

[Jerome Scuggs]

As a libertarian you believe that the world should exist much differently than it does, realpolitik.

edit: no, you're right, my quest for a different world was wrong. i like the world exactly the way it is and i will fight to make sure nothing ever changes.

I believe a public system is proven to provide good quality of care to a lot of people which is sustainable, if you disagree provide something besides "well socialisms is this, or free market blah blah blah".

i guess letting a few people die due to the deliberate actions of someone else isn't so bad. socialized healthcare is "good enough". let us go lobby the government or whatever

edit: oh, and since caring about those dying people makes me heartless... i guess i'll also say FUCK THAT OLD WOMAN, she deserved to die... now i feel better like i am a good human being

[Cops]

you're absolutely right. corporations that sell shitty products never go out of business, and also murder people for no reason. whereas governments listen to the people and always obey things like 'balance of power'.

i'm wrong, i've seen the light. i now advocate universal healthcare... jesus. i'm stupid.

Walmart pays their employees nothing, yet it still exists. Corporations abuse their power and ability to make money, if they had their way everyone would be part time so they didn't have to pay benefits. People work for these shit companies because they have to, and even if they lowered wages and cut services people would still use that company and work for them.

A great example is Canada's internet companies, we have Rogers Cable and Bell, both have agreements not to cut costs so low so they fuck each other over. We have a choice between douchebag a and douchebag b. Corporation's would make monopolies out of these healthcare companies to the point of leaving you with no options to recieve medical treatment.

Not to mention lack of laws and standards in practicing medicine,[sarcasm] I mean the government shouldn't set standards on who should be allowed to call themselves a doctor.[/sarcasm]

[Cops]

edit: no, you're right, my quest for a different world was wrong. i like the world exactly the way it is and i will fight to make sure nothing ever changes.

your quest is unrealistic, the reality is people need healthcare and they wont get there bashing a decent system (Universal Healthcare). Since free markets aren't a reality or even a possibility Universal Healthcare is and remains to be the best option to help the most people.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Walmart pays their employees nothing, yet it still exists. Corporations abuse their power and ability to make money, if they had their way everyone would be part time so they didn't have to pay benefits. People work for these shit companies because they have to, and even if they lowered wages and cut services people would still use that company and work for them.

ugh, you're right... and now that walmart's stocks have risen incredibly due to economic woes and millions of americans are still being able to keep food on the table because of walmart, it's about time we shut them down.

A great example is Canada's internet companies, we have Rogers Cable and Bell, both have agreements not to cut costs so low so they fuck each other over. We have a choice between douchebag a and douchebag b. Corporation's would make monopolies out of these healthcare companies to the point of leaving you with no options to recieve medical treatment.

yeah, we should get rid of monopolies by creating one giant corporation and letting them control everything... but then give it to the government. so that way when they leave you out to die, there will be no other options. gee, being not heartless is great

Not to mention lack of laws and standards in practicing medicine, I mean the government shouldn't set standards on who should be allowed to call themselves a doctor.

no, i disagree. the government is not out to kill us, cops. they care about nothing except our happiness. if you let anyone call themselves a doctor, than a mexican from below the border would sell his crappy services to poor people who are so stupid, they would see a dirty mexican on a street-corner and think he's a real doctor. we can't have that, which is why the government is here to protect us.

[Jerome Scuggs]

your quest is unrealistic, the reality is people need healthcare and they wont get there bashing a decent system (Universal Healthcare). Since free markets aren't a reality or even a possibility Universal Healthcare is and remains to be the best option to help the most people.

sigh, i guess being full of hope was stupid no hopes of being martin luther king for me... i guess you're right, universal healthcare is "good enough".