(british) healthcare

[Jerome Scuggs]

My model assumed a Free Market.

your healthcare model isn't a "model", it's you taking massive liberties with human nature and playing out a worse-case scenario in a world where everyone hates eachother. i don't need any more of that. you're still failing to account the fact that healthcare prices have risen as steady as healthcare regulation

[Kolar]

I believe democracy exemplifies the same ideals of mutual cooperation, respect for life, liberty and property, all that good stuff. This issue is not about freedom or about anything else, while I would want people to have the option to choose what kind of care they want, and they do in a good universal system, not a socialized system (as private care is always available). It's important to look at the evidence and argue from the aspect of whether System A VS. System B is better (quality, cost and access), not from a purely ideological point of view that compulsory Government is evil thus anything associated with it is bad, even if it works.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I have no idea how this helps your position though, because it states in simple terms that in any closed system (i.e. the earth), if you leave things alone, the amount of chaos will increase as time goes on.

hmm in retrospect i guess this is an easy way to prove your system won't last. want proof? original post!

[Jerome Scuggs]

I believe democracy exemplifies the same ideals of mutual cooperation, respect for life, liberty and property, all that good stuff. This issue is not about freedom or about anything else, while I would want people to have the option to choose what kind of care they want, and they do in a good universal system, not a socialized system (as private care is always available). It's important to look at the evidence and argue from the aspect of whether System A VS. System B is better (quality, cost and access), not from a purely ideological point of view that compulsory Government is evil thus anything associated with it is bad, even if it works.

Wait... this now begs the question... where did you get off in the first place calling me 'heartless' if you're claiming the only way to evaluate all this is some abstract "cost, quality, access" comparison, and saying that the moral and ethical questions behind it are irrelevant?

Have a heart, dude.

[Zerzera]

You are close to my beliefs Jerome, it's why I had numerous discussions about military too, it's the objectivity that some people seem to lack.
But in the end it are just ideologies, you can't prove them, never back it up with examples and it's impossible to achieve them by regulation.
The worst you can do is trying to apply an ideology on people. You have to ask if you can really implement this -lack of- structure, and you can't. You will always have opposition and the only way to get through is to remove the unwilling elements. Something you are against. And then there's always the risk of you being wrong which will have terrible consequences.

The best you can do is keep up the discussion and write it down, share it with others, and maybe through many generations the world will grow into what you have in mind. It's unlikely, because then there has to be a form/path between the state we are in now, and the state we should be.

[Jerome Scuggs]

You are close to my beliefs Jerome, it's why I had numerous discussions about military too, it's the objectivity that some people seem to lack.
But in the end it are just ideologies, you can't prove them, never back it up with examples and it's impossible to achieve them by regulation.
The worst you can do is trying to apply an ideology on people. You have to ask if you can really implement this -lack of- structure, and you can't. You will always have opposition and the only way to get through is to remove the unwilling elements. Something you are against. And then there's always the risk of you being wrong which will have terrible consequences.

this is what i find ironic, because my system is not one you "impose" on people. capitalism is the "hey, man, take it easy... it will all work itself out" of all ideologies. it's, ironically, the one system hippies would love the most

i agree, though, that attempting to impose ideologies is what creates so much suffering and harm. this is why i oppose any instance of government expansion, regardless of 'good intention' - i hear they pave the road to Hell with that.

[Kolar]

Wait... this now begs the question... where did you get off in the first place calling me 'heartless' if you're claiming the only way to evaluate all this is some abstract "cost, quality, access" comparison, and saying that the moral and ethical questions behind it are irrelevant?

Have a heart, dude.

These are simple and quantifiable issues within the health care debate, you refused to acknowledge them as problems in your golden Africa example, 28% access to care and you think that's "relatively" good? It is heartless to argue this from a ideological point of view, analyze the issue on set criteria I provided.

[Galleleo]

I am just getting the idea you haven't read my post at all, all these liberaties I take with human nature, as you call it, are based on pure research (Tversky, Simon, Holt, etc.). There is a reason for the existence of Behavioural and Experimental Economics.. Economic models CAN NOT BE APPLIED, they don't work.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I am just getting the idea you haven't read my post at all, all these liberaties I take with human nature, as you call it, are based on pure research (Tversky, Simon, Holt, etc.). There is a reason for the existence of Behavioural and Experimental Economics.. Economic models CAN NOT BE APPLIED, they don't work.

yes, all of that research is implied under the austrian school of economic thought. once again you miss the point, considering my entire criticism of the concept of a 'model' in general. i agree economic models cannot be applied - thus the case against universal health care.

edit: also, keep in mind - in a free society, you would not have to participate in economics if you feel it was flawed. if you wanted to start a commune, or a government, feel free - people are free to join you, but they're free to leave, as well.

[Jerome Scuggs]

These are simple and quantifiable issues within the health care debate, you refused to acknowledge them as problems in your golden Africa example, 28% access to care and you think that's "relatively" good? It is heartless to argue this from a ideological point of view, analyze the issue on set criteria I provided.

yes, i think it's "relatively" good, compared to the rest of africa - and even under the assumption that that figure is real, even though we discussed the issue of how private hospitals have distorted that statistic.

am i not being realistic here in assuming that the problems won't go away in like, 5 minutes? yeah somalia 's not doing hot compared to, say, the west, but look where they are now compared to years ago and it's a hundredfold increase in their society.

[Epinephrine]

I agree with Jerome. We should just have total anarchy, and then everyone can figure out what to do with themselves. And if some people should create roving gangs for the hell of it? So be it, you shouldn't stop roving gangs, that's regulation man!

[Cops]

i take it back. this is all i needed to hear from you. fucking fascist.

If I'm a fascist then you're a sucker for believing in free markets, not only are you a sucker for believing in such a thing you actually think they could work. Maybe you need to realize that governments create order and for all the bad things Castro has done he has been able to maintain order in his country, if nothing else this is a good thing.

fucking anarcho-capitalists.

[Cops]

I agree with Jerome. We should just have total anarchy, and then everyone can figure out what to do with themselves. And if some people should create roving gangs for the hell of it? So be it, you shouldn't stop roving gangs, that's regulation man!

We'll be like Somalia, everything will turn out just fine. I don't know what's more impressive that he's saying this or that he actually believes it, that boy has seriously lost his marbles. Time to cut back on the excessive drug binges, seriously.

i havent smoked pot in 2 weeks

every three days i take at least 2, max 5 hits of acid

it's been pretty surreal

That explains it!

[Jerome Scuggs]

impressive conclusion to this thread. well played, gentlemen.

[Cops]

night.