People of Ireland stick it to the EU

[Jerome Scuggs]

How can you possibly compare the United States consitution with the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe or the Lisbon Treaty? Europe is not a single country like the United States and probably never will be. I have yet to see a single sovereign country in which dozens of different cultures and languages can coexist under a single traditional government. One could say the strength of the EU lies in voluntarily uniting disparate cultures and economies to a large degree without the need of merging into a single entity along the ranks of the United States.

you should really read our constitution, and then look at the USA now, and then tell me how Europe will avoid falling into the same trap

because as we see in almost every current example, politicians almost always pose the idea of more federal power as a solution.

something that bugs me - the EU's "competition commission" (enforcing competition... seriously? not possible) has decided to ban flourescent lightbulbs for environmental purposes - oddly enough, this will have the effect of protecting Siemens, a German corporation that produces the new energy-efficient lightbulb, against the tons of cheaper lightbulbs coming from Asia - which was killing Siemens' business.

Fuck, EU competition commission... why not just ban the Sun?

[Noah]

I realize that I sounded pretty anti-EU in my earlier posts, but I'm really not. I'm all for EU in many ways, and I can see how some countries can benefit from joining EU. I just don't think Norway can gain so much from it because of our strong economy. We still contribute as much as other countries in aid and in support of EU, I just want Norwegian elected politicians to decide how to contribute. As long as stay in EØS we're still cooperating tightly with EU.

[Cops]

you should really read our constitution, and then look at the USA now, and then tell me how Europe will avoid falling into the same trap

because as we see in almost every current example, politicians almost always pose the idea of more federal power as a solution.

something that bugs me - the EU's "competition commission" (enforcing competition... seriously? not possible) has decided to ban flourescent lightbulbs for environmental purposes - oddly enough, this will have the effect of protecting Siemens, a German corporation that produces the new energy-efficient lightbulb, against the tons of cheaper lightbulbs coming from Asia - which was killing Siemens' business.

Fuck, EU competition commission... why not just ban the Sun?

Jerome I think you've got to realize that they are bad for the environment thus it wasn't the worst thing to do. I also think that without protecting our industries we're going to get owned by Asian industrialization. Our countries can't compete with China if a grain of salt was worth the same amount in the two countries. You can't really point fingers at the EU because America as well as Canada are very protective of its industries. If you look at the abuse of markets you have no where further to look than the country that runs the IMF.

I really don't like the idea of Europe becoming the United States of Europe, I think there are too many distinct differences for all the countries to come together as one single country. Look what happens when provinces and states come together under one country, they lose identity as well as their ability to govern their own people. Federal laws do nothing but get in the way of provincial and state laws. Europe has distinct characteristics, regardless of the size of countries people are very well informed of the different cultures, traditions, and history of European countries, once you're a country people stop looking at the individual state and just the country as a whole. I can see the economic benefits but you basically give up the right to govern your own people and no boost in your economy is worth that shit. I think as a whole provinces and states just really aren't that important, but when you are a country you can actually set policy and make laws that impact your people. Can you imagine federal police trying to enforce laws in states? (Ireland, Netherlands, etc) It's just a bad situation waiting to happen.

[Noah]

I really don't like the idea of Europe becoming the United States of Europe, I think there are too many distinct differences for all the countries to come together as one single country. Look what happens when provinces and states come together under one country, they lose their ability to govern their own people and federal laws do nothing but get in the way of provincial and state laws. Europe has distinct characteristics, regardless of the size of countries people are very well informed of the different cultures, traditions, and history of European countries. I can see the economic benefits but you basically give up the right to govern your own people and no boost in your economy is worth that shit. I think as a whole provinces and states just really aren't that important, but when you are a country you can actually set policy and make laws that impact your people. Can you imagine federal police trying to enforce state laws in Ireland or Netherlands? That shit is just a bad situation waiting to happen.

Cops just hit the nail on the head I just couldn't find in my longer post. It's not all that bad though. Some countries are better off with a strong EU, especially poorer countries. As long as countries like Ireland can still have a democratic choice about it then they have the freedom to choose to join it if they want to.

[Galleleo]

Just to make clear, I am not against the current treaty, I am against the speed at which the EU is evolving and the ease of which our Dutch government just keeps accepting stuff coming from Brussels. I am just looking at the long term, and my no vote was mainly to indicate to the Dutch government: Hold on for a second, can we think about what we are just accepting here and stuff. Not just follow France or Germany or whatever.

I am not so much a Nationalist as in: The Dutch Uber Alles. But I do think it is very important to stay Dutch, to keep our own identity and stuff. I didn't vote no purely to be anti-EU, but just to take a step back and really look at what we are doing and accepting and stuff.

[Zerzera]

I have nothing against the way the United States are ran. Although most of the country seems a bit more conservative and patriotic than I can agree with, I think they have things worked out pretty well. The only problem is that their current president has no respect for the trias politica and probably should have been impeached because of that. Or maybe one of the other two branches should have stepped up earlier.

I think that the European Union as it is now is a better format. It is very transparent in basic. But some parts of it are really only drafts or stubs that still need to be worked out. It's really like a project of a group of befriended countries that try to reach their common goals by cooperation. Some countries just don't need to be as involved as other countries, and they should be free to do so.

I believe the constitution was nothing more than reorganizing the drafts and stubs. Cutting and summarizing some of the treaties, removing contradicting regulations and so on. It's work that has to be done, one way or another. The people who are responsible were a bit too enthusiastic and out of touch with the common people when they presented their solution.
It was a good lesson, and maybe they didn't quite deal with the disappointing result. Let's just hope that this doesn't slow down the progress too much, because there are some serious issues that have to be dealt with.
Especially foreign affairs since it's very likely that the United States will end up with a reasonable government after that moron is gone, it's important for them to know what Europe is about.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Jerome I think you've got to realize that they are bad for the environment thus it wasn't the worst thing to do. I also think that without protecting our industries we're going to get owned by Asian industrialization. Our countries can't compete with China if a grain of salt was worth the same amount in the two countries. You can't really point fingers at the EU because America as well as Canada are very protective of its industries. If you look at the abuse of markets you have no where further to look than the country that runs the IMF.

Well considering the plethora of more immediate environmental problems that aren't being dealt with, the relative inconvenience to the consumer, and the fact that the benefit is almost inconsequential, especially compared to the incredible benefit to the Producer and the loss of profit to the Asian industries... I dunno, it seems to me like it was a bit overboard. In the long run I think the consumer will suffer because instead of further developing the new technology to make it cheaper/more efficient/etc, they simply shut out the alternatives instead of trying to compete with it. I have used the new CFL's, and while I might save 22 bucks a year in energy... I spent over $125 that year replacing the bulbs because they burn out super quick. As a consumer, that's just not viable, especially given the minimal energy savings.

I'm all for saving energy, but I think that it's only possible when it's economically possible. The US started getting eco-crazy 30-40 years ago, but it's only now, that we can produce the tech and make it cheap - that consumers are actually beginning to switch. Like the all-electric Chevy Volt that's coming out within the next 2 years for only 20,000 dollars. Now that driving electric is actually cheaper, people are going to do it.

edit: and if China does find a way to manufacture cheap, long-lasting CFL's... the company is fucked anyways. Unless the EU prohibits the foreign competition... but that would be an anti-environmental decision. What would the EU decide in favor of? Its domestic companies, or environmentalism?

edit II: i agree with you on your second point, though. like noah said, mad props

[Jerome Scuggs]

Cops just hit the nail on the head I just couldn't find in my longer post. It's not all that bad though. Some countries are better off with a strong EU, especially poorer countries. As long as countries like Ireland can still have a democratic choice about it then they have the freedom to choose to join it if they want to.

I think that's the problem - it would benefit poor countries at the expense of the rich. To protect a poor country, the EU might ban other countries from producing or exporting something, so the poor country would make a profit... it's not good economics. Don't just look at one group... look at every group :P

And remember, at one time, American states had the choice to secede if they felt the Fedgov had breached the contract that was the Constitution. Now, it's illegal and would incur repercussion. The problem is creeping Federalism - you know, President Bush has more powers now than King George had when we revolted. We now have ten times more taxes than King George ever imposed on us. We have more rights violations than King George ever could possibly commit.. if Thomas Jefferson saw America today, he would shit, his, pants.

[Epinephrine]

if Thomas Jefferson saw America today, he would shit, his, pants.

It's true, old people are more incontinent than we think.

[Cops]

Well considering the plethora of more immediate environmental problems that aren't being dealt with, the relative inconvenience to the consumer, and the fact that the benefit is almost inconsequential, especially compared to the incredible benefit to the Producer and the loss of profit to the Asian industries... I dunno, it seems to me like it was a bit overboard. In the long run I think the consumer will suffer because instead of further developing the new technology to make it cheaper/more efficient/etc, they simply shut out the alternatives instead of trying to compete with it. I have used the new CFL's, and while I might save 22 bucks a year in energy... I spent over $125 that year replacing the bulbs because they burn out super quick. As a consumer, that's just not viable, especially given the minimal energy savings.

I'm all for saving energy, but I think that it's only possible when it's economically possible. The US started getting eco-crazy 30-40 years ago, but it's only now, that we can produce the tech and make it cheap - that consumers are actually beginning to switch. Like the all-electric Chevy Volt that's coming out within the next 2 years for only 20,000 dollars. Now that driving electric is actually cheaper, people are going to do it.

edit: and if China does find a way to manufacture cheap, long-lasting CFL's... the company is fucked anyways. Unless the EU prohibits the foreign competition... but that would be an anti-environmental decision. What would the EU decide in favor of? Its domestic companies, or environmentalism?

edit II: i agree with you on your second point, though. like noah said, mad props

I'll be honest as far as lights go I know nothing, I think you've had experience with those lights so you obviously know more about them. I still think that banning light bulbs wasn't the worst thing they could do, if they banned a main industry or taxed them heavily for something they produce then that's more bullshit than banning light bulbs.

I think once you agree to become a country you pretty much kiss your rights and freedoms away, some places it makes sense, but uniting 20 European countries under one flag is just going to take away any individuality these countries hold onto. When people talk about Italy it shouldn't be said that it's just some place in Europe, same with the other countries. Do you know what it's like to live in a province in a country that has little to no rich history? I might be Canadian by birth, but I identify with my Scottish and Irish heritage, and I don't want to see Ireland turn into Ontario, just another province in the middle of a big ass country. Realistically I think it's inevitable though, once you join currencies and link your economies together you might as well just sign a constitution and call yourselves all states.

I have nothing against the way the United States are ran. Although most of the country seems a bit more conservative and patriotic than I can agree with, I think they have things worked out pretty well.

It's not worked out, America is absolutely at arms length with itself. The people feel disenfranchised by federal laws. Individual state laws don't matter, the people are forced under a lose alliance in which they can't leave. 49 other states set the status quo and that one lonely state is told to either accept the law or the federal government will force it upon them. Once you decide to become a country you give up your right to write your own laws. You're giving up everything that separates you from the world. What's the point in going to Ireland when it's no different than the rest of Europe?

[Reaver]

It's true, old people are more incontinent than we think.

This was the most informative, and yet, most persuasive post in this thread.

[Epinephrine]

I think once you agree to become a country you pretty much kiss your rights and freedoms away, some places it makes sense, but uniting 20 European countries under one flag is just going to take away any individuality these countries hold onto. When people talk about Italy it shouldn't be said that it's just some place in Europe, same with the other countries. Do you know what it's like to live in a province in a country that has little to no rich history? I might be Canadian by birth, but I identify with my Scottish and Irish heritage, and I don't want to see Ireland turn into Ontario, just another province in the middle of a big ass country. Realistically I think it's inevitable though, once you join currencies and link your economies together you might as well just sign a constitution and call yourselves all states.



It's not worked out, America is absolutely at arms length with itself. The people feel disenfranchised by federal laws. Individual state laws don't matter, the people are forced under a lose alliance in which they can't leave. 49 other states set the status quo and that one lonely state is told to either accept the law or the federal government will force it upon them. Once you decide to become a country you give up your right to write your own laws. You're giving up everything that separates you from the world. What's the point in going to Ireland when it's no different than the rest of Europe?

I think you're overstating things a little bit.

Granted the EU is moving towards something like a 'single country', it is still quite far from removing all shreds of individual sovereignty from each country.

That said, there are plenty of universal things which individual countries in the EU probably all agree on, with some minor differences. The laws and values are generally similar in European countries, such as democracy, respect for human rights, and similar criminal codes.

Matters of commerce are already union wide, and so is freedom of movement. Perhaps one of the most important things that the union needs to decide on for the future is the advent of an EU military force. Such a force, if properly funded and created would be a good counterbalance to the US military, and would allow Europe to actually participate in interventions around the world (such as Darfur) and aid missions as well without relying on the USA for a lot of it. They couldn't even bomb Serbia without US air power.

The fact is as Galleleo said, perhaps the change is too quick. That said, ever so slowly we have already seen how each country within the union is mattering less and less. Whether this is because of a small population, small individual market, small/insignificant military power or what, or increasingly unimportant languages (everyone in business speaks English, and even Finns on subspace would recommend people not to bother learning Finnish for instance) little by little Europe will coalese.

Unless there are large upheavals which change everything, if it continues, eventually Europe will pass one of these treaties and eventually it will be more of a country. This is probably good for the world, as a large and very unified Europe will be better able to deal with the challenges of the USA, China and India in this century.

[Burzum]

You're oversimplifying a bit; the US territory back in the day when the individual states were either still fresh or not even formed yet was a blank, apart from the indigenous people. The EU, on the other hand, constitutes of 27 countries with a prevalently rich, millenia-old culture. It is night impossible to see the EU plummet to what the US have become, because firstly the drive for preserving even the smallest cultural curiosities, including languages and dialects, is not just legally laid out, but is indeed amplified by the very essence of what the EU stands for. And second, the US have set an incomparable precedent for all the world to see what happens when federal laws slowly gain the upper hand on any other plans that might have been initially devised otherwise.

[Cops]

I think you're overstating things a little bit.

Granted the EU is moving towards something like a 'single country', it is still quite far from removing all shreds of individual sovereignty from each country.

That said, there are plenty of universal things which individual countries in the EU probably all agree on, with some minor differences. The laws and values are generally similar in European countries, such as democracy, respect for human rights, and similar criminal codes.

Matters of commerce are already union wide, and so is freedom of movement. Perhaps one of the most important things that the union needs to decide on for the future is the advent of an EU military force. Such a force, if properly funded and created would be a good counterbalance to the US military, and would allow Europe to actually participate in interventions around the world (such as Darfur) and aid missions as well without relying on the USA for a lot of it. They couldn't even bomb Serbia without US air power.

The fact is as Galleleo said, perhaps the change is too quick. That said, ever so slowly we have already seen how each country within the union is mattering less and less. Whether this is because of a small population, small individual market, small/insignificant military power or what, or increasingly unimportant languages (everyone in business speaks English, and even Finns on subspace would recommend people not to bother learning Finnish for instance) little by little Europe will coalese.

Unless there are large upheavals which change everything, if it continues, eventually Europe will pass one of these treaties and eventually it will be more of a country. This is probably good for the world, as a large and very unified Europe will be better able to deal with the challenges of the USA, China and India in this century.

Just because countries have criminal codes and laws do not mean they protect and do the same things, you can't just say countries have laws and democracies thus they are one in the same. Universally speaking Canada has a criminal code much like America, yet it is very different, so different that if we imposed it on each other it would completely change how our country looks and runs. If I'm over stating things too much then you're over-simplifying things too much, just because you want a united Europe to be a counter balance to America and the rest of the world doesn't mean that will happen, nor does it mean that sovereign nations will retain their identity when forming together under one flag. I know the idea is that it's not really a country but more of a union but it will act exactly like a country even if people refuse to call it so.

I know you're a federalist and living in the same province as me we have nothing really to complain about, our country is pretty much run out of Ontario. Go out west or even to Quebec and see how those people feel about federalism and try and figure out why they feel their culture and way of life is dying. I might not be all for Quebec jumping ship but I can at least sympathize with the people who feel like they're losing their identity.

[Zerzera]

Just because countries have criminal codes and laws do not mean they protect and do the same things, you can't just say countries have laws and democracies thus they are one in the same.

You can cooperate on the things you agree on. There are some points you just don't have to compromise really, why not invest in those?