Big Three Bailout- Will you be affected?

[Epinephrine]

Out of curiosity, what rules are you talking about? I would be surprised if there is a difference between a car and any other good. The only problem is getting the US cars trough the emission and safety tests. Afaik.

As for blaming the Unions, i just dont know enough about the "american union" but... im pretty sure its not the workers fault if a company struggles. Of course it would be better if people worked harder for less money, if that were our goal.

Basically most other countries that have domestic car production have quotas/heavy levies on foreign cars.

[Cops]

There's a Ford plant ten minutes down the road from where I live. I'm waiting for that to close down. As much as I sympathize with job loses you had to know these jobs were on the chopping block for sometime. Ford employees here make amazing amounts of money, and most of them have been with the company for twenty something years. They've had plenty of time to pay off their house and build up their nest egg. If you banked your future on the fact that Ford would never go under then you're a fucking moron. My ex-girlfriend's family is pretty high up at that plant, they knew perfectly well that their jobs were all at risk. Did they go back to school and get a diploma or a degree? No. Now their future is at risk because they saw the future and refused to act on it. I have no sympathy for someone who is making $80,000 a year working on a factory line and didn't think that it might have been 'too good to be true'.

I think everyone's hitting this problem on the head, you can't just buy every industry out left right and center. My provincial government is taking the right stance, re-train, re-educate, and create new jobs. Don't go into a massive deficit to save companies that shouldn't need saving in the first place.

I worked at a grocery store that was unionized, and it sucked. We had to pay $6 a week for basically no reason, because the union only helps people that have decided to make a career working in a grocery store. Biggest waste of $700 in my life.

I worked at Loblaws and had to do the exact same thing. Except I was paying something like $15 a week. It was an exorbitant amount of money for someone to lose that only makes $100-200 a week. Everyone was so gun-ho about the union. I first thought that it was a good idea to protect workers but eventually I realized they didn't protect me. The only thing it did was ensure that someone who like you said made a career out of working at a grocery store could continue to make $17-20 an hour. I found this to be out-right fucking ridiculous, if you want to work in a grocery store you don't deserve to make $20 an hour if you're not a supervisor or manager.

The store consisted of 70% part time workers who weren't 'technically' protected under the union. It was also complete ass working there, regardless if I did a good or bad job my manager wasn't even technically a manager. Like Eric said it was just a bunch of bureaucratic bullshit that resulted in me getting my schedule two days before my scheduled shift. For a company that was heavily unionized it was widely mismanaged and full of waste.

[Pandagirl!]

It was the exact same for me working at my store (Kroger). One week they decided to schedule me 4 hours, yet someone I had seniority over got scheduled 32. I called the union and complained, and he point blank told me that he couldn't help me because I was part time (the other person was part time too).

[Cops]

I had to deal with the exact same bullshit. My manager wouldn't even be consistent with his scheduling. I told him I'm in college and my schedule isn't exactly a monday to friday sort of thing. I said please take my schedule of when I'm available to work, which wasn't outrageous. Among the days I was available at night to work I also left friday, saturday, and sunday open. He said he doesn't take people's schedules, he fills shifts based on department needs.

[Money]

says the guy who claims he knows more about american unions then an american. American isnt the Netherlands Your expertise there doesnt mean you have it here.

this, get over yourself zerzera, you dont know as much as you think

[Jerome Scuggs]

drug lords should unionize

whoahoahaoahaoh

[Zerzera]

this, get over yourself zerzera, you dont know as much as you think

Yes, I am sorry, I was thinking that America would have unions up to par with other developed countries. That's just because the Americans on these forums are either cocky or well-educated (never both). My impression of the country is totally skewed.
Every time I condemn America for something I am called anti-American and I don't know how great the country is. Every time I voice my respect for Americas systems I get stomped for not knowing how shitty America is.
Still, I ask you to imagine (or just learn -it's in the history books) what labor was like without unions. If your unions suck so much, why not fix them?

Recession is dawning and all of a sudden you start to point fingers, but for years Americans got overpaid due to this system. Dropping it because one bump in the road is a folly.

[Liquid Blue]

That's just because the Americans on these forums are either cocky or well-educated (never both).

I'd like to think I'm both

but that would just lump me with the former, right?

[HateTheFake]

Yes, I am sorry, I was thinking that America would have unions up to par with other developed countries. That's just because the Americans on these forums are either cocky or well-educated (never both). My impression of the country is totally skewed.
Every time I condemn America for something I am called anti-American and I don't know how great the country is. Every time I voice my respect for Americas systems I get stomped for not knowing how shitty America is.
Still, I ask you to imagine (or just learn -it's in the history books) what labor was like without unions. If your unions suck so much, why not fix them?

Recession is dawning and all of a sudden you start to point fingers, but for years Americans got overpaid due to this system. Dropping it because one bump in the road is a folly.

Not every state has unions and they do just fine. Arizona for example is a right to work state.

[Jerome Scuggs]

here's a debate on unions

I think I'm going to take up Zerz's point here, mainly because I'm willing to bet most of you know shit about unions. I certainly don't. Perhaps we should find a common definition first.

Most people who defend unions defend the idea of workers organizing, which I think is perfectly legit. But the people who criticize unions usually criticize their "mafia"-like control of labor and workers and the subsequent problems for industry. The latter is a result of state-protected unions, not of unions in-of-themselves.

People have the right to organize at any time, for any reason. Employees are no different. They have the right to organize and protest their conditions. The fact that employees have a state-guaranteed power that businesses do not pretty much guarantees that one party is going to be screwed, because they have no equal power.

If you use Marxist rhetoric, it can be said that the interests of the worker and the capitalist are always at odds. And that's true - workers always want more wages, capitalists always want more profits. State-backed unions help workers protect their interests - what if businesses had a "union" that allowed them to issue counter-demands against labor? What if the Big Three could counter-argue that the labor unions were screwing them? That because of high wages they couldn't drop money into R&D, and because of ridiculous work-hours they couldn't physically devote enough time to R&D?

[DankNuggets]

i live in a state that is very ani-union (as is much of the south from what i'm told)

about 7-10 years ago, one of the major Mack Truck (18 wheeler's) manufacturing plants closed its doors for good. Thousands of jobs lost. People were up in arms over what to do about it.

Fast foward two years. Honda announces it's opening up a plant in a rural area, bringing hundreds of jobs.

Fast foward to this year. BMW, who's had a major research and manufacturing plant in the upstate, has decide expand it's plant to twice the size, creating hundreds if not thousands of jobs.

Point of the whole story: the big 3 auto makers fill a spot in the labor market, which we don't deny. However, that vacuum will be closed as efficiently as possible. BMW, Honda, and all other foriegn companies should be drooling at the promises of taking the big 3's market share. Salivating to the point where they're willing to go in and expand their businesses here. Well that might not be good news to auto workers in Detriot, it's good news to autowokers in Greenville/Spartanburg, who'll reap the benefits of added jobs to their respective auto plants.

The jobs will be gone, and it will be a hard year, or couple of years for those 1-3 million former auto workers. IMO, that 25 billion dollars would be better held as a fund to pay the unemployeement costs of the people who're about to lose their jobs. Quick math: what's 25B / 3M ? it's only $8,333.00 but that's a start. I don't know what the current unemployeement benefits pay, but an extra 8k couldn't hurt. I also think that it would be a better investment, with a greater return on our tax money. It'd also be easier to stomach paying umployment with tax payer money than bailing out an industry with that same money.

I'm not naive enough to think that those 3 million people will be offered jobs by honda and toyota, but I'm also pretty sure those people aren't going to sit around on their hands until they're homeless. Maybe it'll take a new New Deal, and we'll see Detroit and Ohio become the country's next nuclear powerhouses, who knows.

One thing's for sure: I drive a '92 Honda Accord, and i'm sure as hell not gonna get rid of it for anything but another Honda. They've earned my trust and respect as a business, and if it was them asking for a bailout, i'd feel much better about seeing them pay the loan off.

[Jerome Scuggs]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

looks like citigroup's investments came through... they spent a couple million of lobbying expenses, in return they got 300 billion

awesome

[Squeezer]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

looks like citigroup's investments came through... they spent a couple million of lobbying expenses, in return they got 300 billion

awesome

There's a lot of anger in this thread and around the country about these moves. The one thing I haven't seen anyone consider however is the scale of the impact 3 major car companies and the country's largest bank pose. We're thinking in billions of dollars, not about the number of Ford, Chevy and GMC dealerships, gas stations, repair centers and other auto related businesses. They, by default, are out of business too. That's more unemployment we're all going to have to dole out.

I'm not strongly advocating for either side but I think it might be better to bite the bullet now and stop delaying the inevitable. The life style of decadence, debt and apathy has to come to an end at some point.

[Jerome Scuggs]

The one thing I haven't seen anyone consider however is the scale of the impact 3 major car companies and the country's largest bank pose. We're thinking in billions of dollars, not about the number of Ford, Chevy and GMC dealerships, gas stations, repair centers and other auto related businesses. They, by default, are out of business too. That's more unemployment we're all going to have to dole out.

repair shops will probably get more business, since the Big 3 can no longer service these cars. of course, such a spike in business for Big-3 car repairs will mean a spike in hiring mechanics, and who best to hire? ex big 3 employees!

there's already a small industry that re-produces car parts, for antique car enthusiasts, etc. perhaps this industry will explode when demand for big-3 auto parts rises.

gas stations etc will still exist, as long as people drive cars.

once again, this is why I oppose government interventions: the future consequences of their actions are rarely given serious thought, because it's impossible to predict the future. had GM never been subsidized so heavily, they would have either gone out of business or placed themselves in a profitable position a long time ago.

of course, now the "only" way to save a catastrophe is to save GM.

perhaps we should stop and think: maybe by avoiding this right now, it will be worse in the future. maybe we should suck it up and let it happen - the children are our future!!

[Liquid Blue]

such a spike in business for Big-3 car repairs will mean a spike in hiring mechanics, and who best to hire? ex big 3 employees!

It'd be nice if that were the case, but it's not. I don't want to make a blanket statement and say none would get hired, but there are plenty of people who never worked for the Big 3 that would get hired and will continue to get hired faster than those ex-employees