Auto Bailout DE-NIED

[Izor]

well i thought it would be closer than the polls said (i was right) but i was wrong on how much.

[Trunks_rage]

The reason we don't want the auto-industry to fail Izor is because it will turn this deep recession into a depression. The last thing you do in an economic crisis is let 250,000 more people get laid off in one giant swoop. Especially working class people that will not have an easy time finding other work and will flood the already diminishing job market for lower wage jobs pushing the truly unskilled labor force completely out of work. The military you speak of depends exclusively on taxpayer dollars, because the military does not create revenue it only eats it up at an alarming rate in the most wasteful fashion imaginable. A report came out just recently on the loss of 100 billion dollars in reconstruction money for Iraq because of the Pentagon's poor planning and execution. Here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/wo...t.html?_r=1&hp

There is an extremely misguided sense of perspective blaming so much on the auto-industry. The financial crisis was caused by predatory lending practices and credit default swaps that spread pernicious amounts of risk into vital economic institution's balance sheets. Where is the lynch mob to take down those bastards in pinstripe suits who walked away from this mess asking for end of the year bonuses? Here:

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstori...46&feedID=1198

I believe all should prosper not just those who are in a position to exploit others. But ever since Reagan there has been this philosophical black hole that has dragged conservative working class people into believing that policies that only benefit the rich are the best for this country. I say emphatically that they are not.

[HateTheFake]

The unions screwed this, these labor workers were making and continue to make 89 grand a year starting off. This is a ridiculous amount of money to be giving people. Idk how much more competitive they need to get. At least the military comes up with inventions we use in everyday life.

Prosthetic Limbs
Sonar
Can Opener

[Trunks_rage]

The average pay for an autoworker is $28 an hour which is a far cry from 89,000 a year. You're using bad statistics Hate the Fake. Entry level wages for the Big Three can be as low as $12 an hour. The scewed statistics that you are using average the payout by dividing it among active workers as opposed to separating for pension funds to the vast number of retirees.

And as for the inventions you're talking about, those are inadvertent discoveries that were originally intended as means of war. The vast amount of government grants that go into research in Universities has much higher bang for your buck in terms of real innovation and technological breakthroughs. So once again it's a misguided sense of perspective.

[Squeezer]

The unions screwed this, these labor workers were making and continue to make 89 grand a year starting off. This is a ridiculous amount of money to be giving people. Idk how much more competitive they need to get. At least the military comes up with inventions we use in everyday life.

Prosthetic Limbs
Sonar
Can Opener

5-day work week
8-hour work day
Child labor laws
Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance

Fucking Unions never gave us anything.

edit: Not saying the UAW isn't stubborn and outdated, only that you should recognize that the reason your professional life is so cushy is because of the effort Unions have made in America's history.

[Izor]

Yes, lets credit the unions for a 5 day work week and 8 hour work days. Because clearly the unions invented those. They also clearly invented everything else you listed, like child labor laws. If not for unions we'd still be having our 8 year olds making soccer balls! Also if not for unions no one would ever have a retirement plan health insurance or life insurance!!!

But you DID leave out their number one invention:

mandatory 15 minute breaks every hour

[Squeezer]

Yes, lets credit the unions for a 5 day work week and 8 hour work days. Because clearly the unions invented those. They also clearly invented everything else you listed, like child labor laws. If not for unions we'd still be having our 8 year olds making soccer balls! Also if not for unions no one would ever have a retirement plan health insurance or life insurance!!!

They pushed for legislation to make sure that systems were in place to protect against the things I listed. Do you really feel that unions deserve no credit for anything on that list?

[HateTheFake]

ive lived in 2 right to work states and I dont see a problem with not having them.

[Trunks_rage]

Their responses have gotten noticeably smaller Squeezer because they have no more facts to back up their arguments. It's a matter of pure opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Some would call that arrogance, the type displayed on Fox News or in the conservative blog echo chamber. The truth doesn't matter because they simply dislike the truth.

[HateTheFake]

Unions were great in the 1800s but unions as of now dont do shit for me. I work 100 hours a week, I dont have holidays off. Im fine with it, because its a job that i knew what i was getting into. Unions would rather have it so they make as much money as the corporation on every where. The unions are the reason for the clapse of gm. Noone can deny that.

[Squeezer]

Unions were great in the 1800s but unions as of now dont do shit for me. I work 100 hours a week, I dont have holidays off. Im fine with it, because its a job that i knew what i was getting into. Unions would rather have it so they make as much money as the corporation on every where. The unions are the reason for the clapse of gm. Noone can deny that.

Hence why I posted this at the end! :sorcerer:

edit: Not saying the UAW isn't stubborn and outdated, only that you should recognize that the reason your professional life is so cushy is because of the effort Unions have made in America's history.

It's a stupid idea to disassemble the only protection a worker gets from their employer. You want an example of people getting fucked by their bosses because of unfair practices, read about Wal-Mart sometime.

[gran guerrero]

this thread needs less politix and moar mudslingin

[Doc Flabby]

Unions were great in the 1800s but unions as of now dont do shit for me. I work 100 hours a week, I dont have holidays off. Im fine with it, because its a job that i knew what i was getting into. Unions would rather have it so they make as much money as the corporation on every where. The unions are the reason for the clapse of gm. Noone can deny that.

No the collapse of gm is due to making shitty cars no one wants to buy. It has nothing to do with the unions. Foriegn manufactures have factories in the USA. Your toyota or other generic eastern car maker is probably made in the USA. Im pretty sure BMW has factories in USA. Its not they dont hav the skills to build good cars...the american big 3 lack the vision.

Foreign cars are simply cheaper/better made/cheaper to run. The european models that ford make are vastly better than the american ones. And it shows. fords european division is profitable, the american division is losing money.

Much like the British car industry in the 1970s...the american car industry has made the same mistake of making cars no one wants to buy.

[HateTheFake]

No the collapse of gm is due to making shitty cars no one wants to buy. It has nothing to do with the unions. Foriegn manufactures have factories in the USA. Your toyota or other generic eastern car maker is probably made in the USA. Im pretty sure BMW has factories in USA. Its not they dont hav the skills to build good cars...the american big 3 lack the vision.

Foreign cars are simply cheaper/better made/cheaper to run. The european models that ford make are vastly better than the american ones. And it shows. fords european division is profitable, the american division is losing money.

Much like the British car industry in the 1970s...the american car industry has made the same mistake of making cars no one wants to buy.

a big part of foreign cares being cheaper is they dont have unions raping their corporation for shit loads of money/breaks

[Displaced]

america is the only country in the world with unions? :whistling