Auto Bailout DE-NIED

[Izor]

Where will they get any money to research and develop better cars when all of their money is going to their staff. Theres no profit for these companies right now, and the reason is the unions. They still do sell cars, trust me, but they cant make any money because of the money the unions take from them

The 'overwhelming evidence' here is the wild claim that unions made things like the 40 hour work week based on no fact at all.

Giving these companies money is just going to continue their bad business techniques. You really, truly think that in 3 months (which is when theyre going to come back for more money) they'll turn things around and start making profit? The new model year cars wont even be out by then. How could you possibly justify that? Also, the jobs that we're losing here in america will be more than made up for when these companies come back much leaner assuming they dont outsource a lot of the jobs to canada and mexico again.

[Liquid Blue]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/19/news...ion=2008121909

President Bush announced a rescue plan for General Motors and Chrysler LLC Friday morning that will make $13.4 billion in federal loans available almost immediately.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Chrysler is a privately owned company, and IMHO should not get the bailout funding. I also heard of talk between GM and Chrysler in a merger? This is a Public company merging with a private company? That would result in GM buying Chrysler. I thought GM didn't have money?


F the Big 3. When a production line worker is making $75 an hour with full medical benefits and no co-pay, along with a pension fund and then having the UAW say that the workers will not take any cuts in pay or their insurance....I say F'm and every overpaid employee. From upper management to the production line worker...they are all overpaid and do not want to face the realities of the worlds financial problems.

On a side note, noting what Doc Flabby said in comparing the Big 3 to the UK car manufacturers...I am not sure I can agree with you at least on the line of replacement parts, as I actually think that the Big 3 make decent replacement parts for their cars and trucks, unlike the crap Lucas parts I had and still am having in dealing with when I had my old Triumph and especially today with my Land Rover.

[Doc Flabby]

[COLOR=black]On a side note, noting what Doc Flabby said in comparing the Big 3 to the UK car manufacturers...I am not sure I can agree with you at least on the line of replacement parts, as I actually think that the Big 3 make decent replacement parts for their cars and trucks, unlike the crap Lucas parts I had and still am having in dealing with when I had my old Triumph and especially today with my Land Rover.

The european arms of the big 3 are great. Producing quality cars and parts and are profitable. They have been pretty much subsidising the american side. My critism and real question is why the american side of the business has not followed the profitable business model of the european side, escpially considering americans buy more cars.

They don't NEED to do the research they have all the designs and engineering in europe already they can just copy that shit over.

a big part of foreign cares being cheaper is they dont have unions raping their corporation for shit loads of money/breaks

You're missing the real problem: the foreign cars ARE BETTER

If they REALLY had a problem with the unions chapter 11 would be their best option...It would provide them a great opertunity to renegociate all the contracts...In fact i'd start by sacking the board...However it would mean they might lose there private jets which they flew out in to ask for your money :P

Hell even in the same company they are better. Ford's european division has been subsidising american ford for years. Fords european division makes well respected cars in europe that are popular and has been profitable for a long time. Strangly in "socialist" europe the unions don't seem to prevent car companies making a profit.

The real problem the business stratey of these companies sucks. The people running them are not running them in the interests of the company...but rather themselves...

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The european arms of the big 3 are great. Producing quality cars and parts and are profitable. They have been pretty much subsidising the american side. My critism and real question is why the american side of the business has not followed the profitable business model of the european side, escpially considering americans buy more cars.

They don't NEED to do the research they have all the designs and engineering in europe already they can just copy that shit over.



You're missing the real problem: the foreign cars ARE BETTER

If they REALLY had a problem with the unions chapter 11 would be their best option...It would provide them a great opertunity to renegociate all the contracts...In fact i'd start by sacking the board...However it would mean they might lose there private jets which they flew out in to ask for your money :P

Hell even in the same company they are better. Ford's european division has been subsidising american ford for years. Fords european division makes well respected cars in europe that are popular and has been profitable for a long time. Strangly in "socialist" europe the unions don't seem to prevent car companies making a profit.

The real problem the business stratey of these companies sucks. The people running them are not running them in the interests of the company...but rather themselves...

Ford has come out in saying and admitting that they have cars that get better MPG and are big sellers in the Euro and Asian markets, but that it will not be cost effective to produce the same models in the States, as they will have to re-tool the factories to be able to manufacture the engines. I do not buy that excuse from Ford and hence why they will not just copy what they have outside the states.

Next year GM will be working with a Chinese car company that will be importing cars to the U.S. from Mexico in efforts to curb taxation of which would arise if they had been made in China and imported directly. This car will sell for under $12,000.00 Lucky we have NAFTA to get around the taxes.

The foreign Auto Companies that are set-up in the States are not having the problems due to labor unions that the Big 3 have.

Financially, the big problem stems from the bonus checks, overpaid production line employee's and favoring SUV sales over cars. This past month, the gas prices had come down to a substantial lower cost at the pump, resulting in auto sales by the Big 3 again with more SUV's being purchased over a Car. I guess we can also blame the idiots that are buying these SUV's that live in urban areas of which the true use of the SUV will never be used, other than the driver causing accidents because they can't drive these monster SUV's.

One can blame the industry, the unions, the labor force and even the consumer in this case.

[kthx]

White text looks better on black background IMHO.

[Cops]

Why not re-invest in new blooming technology and use the mid-west and northern parts of Canada to harness wind energy? I know some farmers are but there's money to be made, and it'll suck once North Americans try to play catch up.

[Cops]

You're missing the real problem: the foreign cars ARE BETTER

Not necessarily, for suburban and urban driving foreign cars are better but as far as SUVs go I'd still avoid getting a Hyundai or a Kia. Depending on where you live or how you live for that matter a small fuel efficient vehicle isn't always ideal.

The quality of the Big 3 vehicles are fine, they just got greedy and produced SUV's that have something like $20,000 of profit made on each vehicle, compared to $2,000 - 5,000 of profit made on each smaller vehicle. They're going to make more money on an SUV than a car, the only problem was they weren't selling any SUVs.

I'm with 404 on this one, the blame really falls on a multiple number of people. I would literally fire 90% of the CEO's and top level executives who like everyone else saw this coming and squandered their companies money. As a shareholder once you lose trust in a company then I would no longer invest in that company, and like many people they no longer believe these three companies deserve OUR trust or our money. The problem is that these companies can't die, and the government knows it, and what's worse is the companies know it. That's exactly why they rolled into Washington on their private jets with their hands out, because they expected the government to just hand them their cheque and go home. It was fucking awesome to see them get dragged through the fucking mud, it had to happen.

I'd like to see these fucking unions let the fuck up, and stop expecting that their workers make double or triple what other people are making with the same level of education and work load.

I'd also like to see countries like South Korea allow foreign companies the ability to sell vehicles in their country.

[Displaced]

I personally wouldn't classify a Hyundai or a Kia as a "car", hence, they shouldn't even be considered :P

That said, there are lots of "foreign" SUV's I'd take over an American made SUV any day of the week.

Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Subaru, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Land Rover, Range Rover, Porsche etc. etc.

As for "quality" of the Big 3, I also beg to differ that it is "fine".
I've had the unfortunate experience of having two Jeeps as company cars, they were in the dealership more often than on the road, gearbox issues, fuelpump issues, driveshaft issues, electrical issues, hell one of the two even caught fire when the fuelpump shorted... but I guess thats all "fine" :turned:

The EUDM Fords are decent, and cars that I could consider buying, but the USDM Fords are utter garbage, a friend of mine imported a F-150 from the states, what a bomb that turned out to be, interior is made up of parts that dont fit together, and after 65k (km) it had already had 2 gearbox changes, robust piece of engineering

Back on point though, I dont think the big 3 should "die", they are far too valuable to the economy, however some kind of mandated/regulated reorganistaion should be put into effect, there is absolutely no sense in the way the big 3 are run atm.

p.s. you can buy "foreign" cars in South Korea, i.e. Lexus has dealerships in Seoul.

[Jerome Scuggs]

remember when audi was like kia and hyundai

say what you will but i might throw some dimes at korean stocks

[Cops]

I personally wouldn't classify a Hyundai or a Kia as a "car", hence, they shouldn't even be considered :P

That said, there are lots of "foreign" SUV's I'd take over an American made SUV any day of the week.

Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Subaru, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Land Rover, Range Rover, Porsche etc. etc.

As for "quality" of the Big 3, I also beg to differ that it is "fine".
I've had the unfortunate experience of having two Jeeps as company cars, they were in the dealership more often than on the road, gearbox issues, fuelpump issues, driveshaft issues, electrical issues, hell one of the two even caught fire when the fuelpump shorted... but I guess thats all "fine" :turned:

The EUDM Fords are decent, and cars that I could consider buying, but the USDM Fords are utter garbage, a friend of mine imported a F-150 from the states, what a bomb that turned out to be, interior is made up of parts that dont fit together, and after 65k (km) it had already had 2 gearbox changes, robust piece of engineering

Back on point though, I dont think the big 3 should "die", they are far too valuable to the economy, however some kind of mandated/regulated reorganistaion should be put into effect, there is absolutely no sense in the way the big 3 are run atm.

p.s. you can buy "foreign" cars in South Korea, i.e. Lexus has dealerships in Seoul.

I thought they didn't import foreign cars. As far as I knew South Korea doesn't import Ford, and GM vehicles. As far as SUV's go Ford isn't that bad, but they aren't the best things out there. North American cars aren't shitty, it's not like we drive complete pieces of crap. I think horror stories exist everywhere so you can't judge a vehicle by one single story.

Can you explain to me how European Ford cars are substantially better than North American cars? What's the difference in standards, how are they constructed differently? What exactly is the difference from cars made in North America and Europe. You might have problems with shit boxes left to sit at a dealership but unless our highways are full of cars on fire I fail to see how our product is far less superior to your product. I'm just curious is all, considering I figure Ford in Ontario, or Detroit isn't much different than Ford in The Netherlands. The only difference I see is that these companies run in Europe aren't run by complete ass-bags who don't know their own car from their private jet. They might also make a product people actually want, lol.

however some kind of mandated/regulated reorganistaion should be put into effect, there is absolutely no sense in the way the big 3 are run atm.

Regulation, reorganization? Sounds like a socialism to me! Not really, but the American public won't accept those ideas, ever. The problem is that you're handing a company money that's going to run itself into the ground again and again.

[Cops]

remember when audi was like kia and hyundai

say what you will but i might throw some dimes at korean stocks

Hyundai and Kia are much better cars than they were ten-to-fifteen years ago. Their dirt cheap, but I still think a Honda black or silver will have the greatest return when it comes to keeping dollars in your wallet at the gas station and at the dealership.

[Izor]

Everyone i know would rather buy a truck/SUV from a US automaker, because its general consensus that the trucks/SUVs are very well built compared to foreign companies (mostly due to the fact that they dont have any demand for them in those countries). However, its also the general consensus of people that ive come across that you can beat down a foreign car and it will keep on ticking and theyre much more reliable. Thats just how it is. Unfortunately the market in america for bigger vehicles is declining rapidly and people really are going with those foreign cars based off those beliefs

[Displaced]

Everyone i know would rather buy a truck/SUV from a US automaker, because its general consensus that the trucks/SUVs are very well built compared to foreign companies (mostly due to the fact that they dont have any demand for them in those countries). However, its also the general consensus of people that ive come across that you can beat down a foreign car and it will keep on ticking and theyre much more reliable. Thats just how it is. Unfortunately the market in america for bigger vehicles is declining rapidly and people really are going with those foreign cars based off those beliefs

This makes no sense to me, how can the US made trucks/SUV's be very well built compared to their foreign counterparts, but the foreign counterparts will keep on going forever.
To me quality is all about reliability. (percieved quality aside)

as for Jerome, yes Korean brands have improved substantially, but they are still leaps and bounds behind their japanese counterparts..
As for the Audi statement, I don't remember, since I wasn't around in 1899 or 1921, but Audis (Auto Union) were dominating motorsports venues in the 1930's, and early 80s audis are better than the kias and hyundais of today :turned:

Cops: The main difference, like it or not, is that the consumers in Europe as a whole are much more demanding than in NA (dont take that as a dig, it isn't meant like that) and as such Ford Europe has to build cars to much more exacting standards than in North America.
Add to that the stringent EU regulations on automakers, which basically forces tolerances to be smaller, thus providing a better end product.

Plus almost all of the major components (engines, transmissions, etc are built in the EU, and are at large quite different to the versions used for the USDM versions)

edit: This isn't completely relevant today, but ill just put it out there.
US cars in the past, i.e. up to the late 80s atleast, didn't even have "proper" spare parts.
A friend of ours had a 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass, which he was restoring, he was able to source some original doors and a hood from the US, (for a 1984 Cutlass mind) and lo and behold, they weren't even close to fitting).
In comparison, buy a spare door for a 1984 Corolla, and it will fit every time.

[Nycle]

Can you explain to me how European Ford cars are substantially better than North American cars? What's the difference in standards, how are they constructed differently? What exactly is the difference from cars made in North America and Europe.

They are better because 10 years ago, when the European divisions were still losing money, they already reached the point where they said "Hey we're losing money, let's re-organise and actually build what the public wants", much like the US has now. So streamlining the management, closing bad plants an cutting deals with unions while catering to the European demand (partly due to EU legislation as well) of fuel-efficient, space-saving, well-designed and high-quality vehicles has put them in a position of not only producing better cars, but also to weather the current storm way better than their motherships in the US.

This has always been the difference between Europe and North America, some products like cars may be way more expensive in Europe than over there but it's a price the consumers are willing to pay in return for some decent quality.

Edit: Yea what Displaced said... :/