Going Dutch

[Galleleo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...l?pagewanted=1

I thought that this was a pretty interesting read, it is an American living in Amsterdam and comparing the two systems.

I would say he gets it pretty much right.

[kthx]

Alright I read the entire article but no matter how eloquently this guy writes about socialism I just can't get passed the part that you basically pay over half of your income into a federal bank account, and that in return it gives you money back for things. Why can't people just be better fiscally with the money they earn to pay for things like school supplies, or their children, or any of the things mentioned in the article. I don't think it is a better system, I think it is a system that basically forced a nation to rely on their government for handouts to get through their life, and that I can't agree with even if it is the way America is headed.

Sure it is nice for him but what about other people who don't have children, and don't reap the benefits that come along with many things that you have money accredited back into your account for. This is no different then in America where my tax dollars are sent to lazy dickheads on welfare who don't want to get jobs, they really want to just sit on their asses and watch television all day with no responsibilities. That is where the system fails, that is why communism has failed, that is why socialism will eventually fail, because nobody really wants to be equal to everyone else, if you work harder, study more, or do whatever you do better than someone you want to see the benefits of it.

Anyways I see this as a huge setback for mankind, it turns us into puppets with someone other than ourselves telling us how we should lead our lives, it takes away our free will. There is a reason why America is at least for now the most powerful nation on the planet, it is because my grandparents, and parents worked hard for it, they wanted to succeed, they wanted to see the nation succeed, they didn't ask for four week paid vacations, all they wanted was to go in and put in a days work and make enough money to put food on the table with it. Anyways I personally don't intend to live somewhere that this happens because when will it stop? Why doesn't the government just take all of your income and put money into your account once a week for your allotted spending money, this is how much you have to eat with, to go drink with, to play golf with. I was happy when I started making my own money because I could do with it what I wanted, I pay my bills, I save money, I have fun with friends and I don't need a government to tell me how and when to do so. Wake up and see this for what it is, it is a government treating adults like children when all that needs to happen is for adults to just be adults.

[Scoop]

I just read the article and I have to say that it seemed extremely biased towards the Dutch way of life. I'd like to read something that actually did give both sides of the story other than the only bad thing about that system is "what do i do with my life," and "oh em gee stores aren't open past 6."



Not worth the read in my opinion...

[gran guerrero]

I thought this thread was about dutch masters blunt

[Jerome Scuggs]

socialism isn't hard when the population really is a mob of mindless atoms who require shaping by positivist hands. no offense or anything - though these enlightened dutch are far past selfish feelings like self-worth.

[PaulOakenfold]

What have your thoughts been on living in America, Galleleo?

[Nycle]

socialism isn't hard when the population really is a mob of mindless atoms who require shaping by positivist hands. no offense or anything - though these enlightened dutch are far past selfish feelings like self-worth.

Nah, although it's still probably harder than the laissez-faire approach which has worked so well for us.

[kthx]

I just don't understand how people are happy living with a system of government like this.

You are basically mowing your governments lawn for your allowance each week.

[Nycle]

I just don't understand how people are happy living with a system of government like this.

You are basically mowing your governments lawn for your allowance each week.

There is just a fundamental difference in thought and culture between the US and the Netherlands, and Europe in general. The US is simply more focused on individual well-being, whereas Europe cares more for the well-being of the collective. Once you assume any of these values it is extremely difficult to understand the other one, so I'm not at all surprised why you can't fathom the fact that anyone could be happy with "super high socialist taxes" that are used to provide for people other than yourself. Just like we can't wrap our minds around what it would be like to have hospital bills, let alone not being able to pay them off.

[Displaced]

I'm from Finland, our "welfare state" sucks... tyvm.

[gran guerrero]

the difference is the weed and hoes

[Pandagirl!]

What have your thoughts been on living in America, Galleleo?

That the Dutch are better at anything and everything

Punk rock can back me up on this one

[genocidal]

That the Dutch are better at anything and everything

Punk rock can back me up on this one

stop with the joke posts-_-

[Galleleo]

Well, if you are referring to things like this Paulo, than I am still really Dutch and the article basically applies to me. In the sense that I don't mind paying so everyone gets at least the basics, such as health care, housing, etc. And in that sense, I am not a big fan of the American way in total.

Thing is, I don't really interact with a whole lot of Americans here, because what I have noticed over here is that the Americans I talk to and hang out with and stuff either have an international background (like this one guy is from Afghanistan and moved here when he was like 10, he is an American citizen now and considers himself American, or this girl that was born in America, but her dad is Finnish and she lived in Finland from when she was like 2 until she was 10), or Americans that are internationally interested or focused. The other Americans that I have met seem to be, almost scared, or at least reluctant to learn about things different from them. They are like, ow hey you are Dutch? Ok nice, I'll go over here with my American friends, you can stay there. It never goes past hey, how ya doing. And I have been hearing the same thing from the other internationals around here.

For the rest, I do like the university system in the way it incorporates sports into the university life and program. That you can get a scholarship for sports and actively practice sports as part of your whole education, and overall the facilities of this University are pretty good.

I have definitely had a good time here, but I guess it is not so much related to America itself, but more to all the other international students I have met here. As far as the country goes, that article portrays the kind of person that I am pretty well, in that I will never understand or like a system like the American one where it is everyone for itself and everyone always looking out for number one.

Also, as far as the criticism in this thread goes so far. People remarking that we pay 52% just so the government can give it back to us later. The writer does mention that:

But there’s more to it. First, as in the United States, income tax in the Netherlands is a bendy concept: with a good accountant, you can rack up deductions and exploit loopholes. And while the top income-tax rate in the United States is 35 percent, the numbers are a bit misleading. “People coming from the U.S. to the Netherlands focus on that difference, and on that 52 percent,” said Constanze Woelfle, an American accountant based in the Netherlands whose clients are mostly American expats. “But consider that the Dutch rate includes social security, which in the U.S. is an additional 6.2 percent. Then in the U.S. you have state and local taxes, and much higher real estate taxes. If you were to add all those up, you would get close to the 52 percent.”

So in other words, all your taxes in total come close to 52%, but you don't even get it back in the same way that we do. Also, it is not completely true that 52% of your salary goes to the government, we have brackets, and only the portion of your salary that is in the highest bracket will be taxed 52%.

And it is not like the Dutch system is perfect, people still fall through the cracks, people still have problems with their insurance coverage and there are still the horror stories. But they do seem to be a lot more isolated cases. I would say no system is perfect, but I found the read interesting.

[kthx]

Well the 52% tax thing isn't really true in America either honestly, in Texas we have very low property and sales tax, and we pay no state income tax, so our taxes in Texas are considerably lower than in states that have higher property taxes and any state income taxes. Overall I probably pay around 35%-40% of my income into taxes, including sales tax on items I buy and all other taxes including my vehicle registration and inspections.

That 12-17% difference isn't that much I guess considering all the paid vacation and free medical visits you get but I honestly don't have much use for that, I save up my money when I want to go on vacation and I still get paid by my work while I am gone, I have relatively cheap health insurance through my job in the rare occurrence that I do need to visit a doctor which is maybe once a year with me being a healthy person.

Anyways I am sure that the benefits of living in a socialist society as a poor or middle class person definitely outweigh the negatives of it, but that just goes against everything that I learned growing up about being self reliant. Since I just made that concession I am sure you can also make a concession when it comes to knowing that having someone constantly taking care of you, whether it is your parents or your government isn't the best way to go through life. It is hard to grow up and mature when you don't have to struggle at all in life, it is what really creates a persons personality and individuality, and this system basically robs people of that ability.