Bizarre Health Care Reactions

[Exalt]

the greediness displayed by the likes of Exalt and Kthx will be pushed aside for a greater good. A greater good.

Let me ask you something... are you always this fucking ignorant?

When did I ever say I agreed with wark? I never said that, and honestly you don't even know what the "universal health care" plan actually is. IT IS NOT FREE you dumb fuck. READ IT before you speak like you know anything. Seriously, shut the fuck up and read it.

Also, I never said I was opposed to it, I merely said that people that earned it like say... veterans... deserved way better than what they get. If you want free health care, join the fucking military.

If you are too poor for health care as it is, get medicaid. Problem solved.

If you think you deserve free health care when you contract AIDS when you make more than enough to afford private health care and/or you could have joined the military for 2 years as a kid, well you deserve to pay for it. Your fault, not mine. If you are too poor for coverage than get on Medicare and you are home free.

[DoTheFandango]

Make Her Say (ft. Kanye West and Common) - Kid CuDi

oh wait wrong thread.

I really love how you oversimplify everything. But whatever, this shit is going to pass whether you like it or not.

Yeah, I do think you should pay for AIDS patients that contracted it from having sex with another dude without a condom, for the poor people that develop lung cancer because they smoked too many marb reds, and for the thug that got shot slinging bags on the corner.

Because if I was in a situation where I needed coverage, I would want it too.

I think it's a basic right that every human being deserves. The problem is not ONLY that there are too many people who don't have healthcare (though that is a huge problem), it's a problem that people that can't apply to medicaid because they don't fall within its necessary requirements cannot get healthcare because the companies don't want to cover them. We need to make a system that covers these people.

Obviously it's not free, you idiot. Nothing is. But to cut out the evil middle man that PROFITS ON THE FACT THAT PEOPLE GETS SICK is the goal, in my mind.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Exalt, every government-funded railroad went bankrupt against people like J. Jerome Hill and Vanderbilt. If you would like to quickly google the history of the "robber barons" and talk like an intelligent person, we can have at it. Or you can save yourself an education and let me break down that period for you. I'm fine with either one.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Btw, Vanderbilt got his title as 'commodore' for his battle against the state of New York, which ran a public ferry. He eventually dropped his ferry prices to zero - as in free - and still managed to profit. The state could not compete and closed it's line down. You could only wish to be that awesome.

[Nycle]

Jerome, if you think anarchy is so great and holds the answer to everything then why don't you go live in a country that's in a state of total lawlessness, like Somalia for example?

[kthx]

If you want to give money to poor people who made stupid decisons in their life go make a donation to them, I personally am not paying for it. Even if the bill passes which it isn't as of right now, Texas is going to opt out of it anyways, so.

[Jerome Scuggs]

kthx, sometimes shit happens. it's not bad choices, it's bad luck. That is why insurance was originally developed.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Jerome, if you think anarchy is so great and holds the answer to everything then why don't you go live in a country that's in a state of total lawlessness, like Somalia for example?

because i can't fuck Asians in Africa.

Maybe one day. If I had to live in Africa, I'd choose Somalia. Yeah there are problems, but compared to every other place in Africa? Of course, someone hasn't been keeping up with the news, they ratified a constitution based on Sharia law. I'm not Muslim, so I would have no reason to go there. Will be interested to see how that affects their standard of living.

I don't think anarchy holds the answer to anything. People hold answers for all kinds of things, and they should be free to pursue their interests. How would moving change that?

[Galleleo]

If I understand it right, the reason the LA public transit system isn't as good as for instance that of LA or NY, is because way back when the city was starting out a group of people, owners of car companies and companies that produce tires, etc. decided that to make more money, the public transit system had to go, so people would buy more cars and these people would thus make, more money. And there we are today, a public transit system lagging behind other big cities.

I see no government causing that there.

Now, I could be wrong on this history, but that is what I heard.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

(stuffs)

I agree with you in a "grander" sense, but that's partially because I'm also a proponent of single-payer. IANAE, but it seems that the only way a "national insurance" would work was if everyone paid in. Until then, the outliers pee in the pool for everyone else. I see this as a step towards that. (Yes, call me a socialist, but it just fucking makes sense if you truly give a shit about your fellow humans, and by extension, yourself.)

But I agree with your point that this step can't be funded by the US selling debt. That won't work, you're right.

The only problem I see in your logic is "why would a state-run medical insurance system be any different than a federal one?" You've seen how state and local people can be bought off just as easily. I just don't know that I've necessarily seen a good enough argument for "open-enrollment state-run insurance will fix this." Got any good reading material?

Edit: I realize you're not pushing for state-run health insurance either, but the principle still applies to private industries within individual states (and removing restrictions on insurance over state lines).

[Mattey]

This thread has gotten a lot more interesting.

Jerome, do you think there should be labor laws?

[gran guerrero]

Here's healthcare reform

legalize weed

[Mattey]

It just occurred to me that in Jerome's ideal society there would be no public schools, right? How would a for-profit school work? I'm guessing every person would have to pay for their child's education and the people that can't afford it would just be shit out of luck.

And people that couldn't afford to pay up-front for their medical operations wouldn't really need those vaccines anyway.

And your house is burning down? Well, I better hope you can pay the fireman and pay for the water to douse your house.

And you got robbed? Well, hopefully they didn't take everything otherwise you won't be able to pay the police to go get your shit back.

Your worldview is laughable. Grow up and realize we're living in a society. No man is an island. Everybody has to help everybody else. Selfishness is not a virtue no matter how many times you read Atlas Shrugged.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Public education happens to be my current interest (I plan on teaching so I spend alot of time researching... chances are I will be a public employee.)

My view on public education require some higher-level abstract thinking to understand so follow along, cog!

It's hard to look at an institution such as our public 'education' as working in a stateless society (btw, Ayn Rand hated anarchists and defended the State - you have more in common with her than I do. Hah.), mainly because it sucks ass. Seriously, you spend 18 years bitching and when you get out, suddenly you recall it fondly.

I'll wager it wasn't your education you remembered fondly, it was the social experience - and social experiences are outside the realm of government regulation, for the most part. Without public schools, people would learn to socialize in different ways. Don't ask me how, human action is far outside the scope of predictability.

I don't defend selfishness. I believe that humans merely act. There's no 'why' or 'how' - those vary in every individual - but the fact is, they act. If you sit around and think about it, you can deduce that humans think, and going further you develop property rights, etc... and from that I derive certain ethical and moral observations. Selfishness is certainly not immoal. Selfishness that leads to the harm of another's person or property? That's grounds for punishment.

Anyways, education in a society would be dynamic and ever-changing - to meet the specfc needs of specific individuals. Guy applies for a job, company pays money to train - ie educate - him. Both parties benefit. Private schools would exist, but given no monopolistic and public competitor, prices would vary. You would have expensive schools and cheap schools.

Remember - people are people. So yes, for every asshole CEO who charges a thousand bucks for an education, there's the humble philanthropist offering lower rates, or offering scholarships, et cetera. And then you have online education, and then you have books. Companies would train and educate people. So on, so forth.

Without the chains of regulation, getting a job would be not be a question of qualifications, but one of ability. Not "do you have a piece of paper that says you can do this" but "can you do this?" If one was so inclined, he could simply teach himself. What, if the government dissapears the ability to teach children how to read goes away? Shit, you could spend fifty bucks at walmart to buy a device that teaches literacy. It's that easy.

I can't promise equality of status - some people get the short straw, some people get the long straw, most get straws between those extremes. But I can promise equality of opportunity - no closed doors if you really set your mind to it. And I would also argue that the population of truly destitute people would be vastly smaller than status quo.

It's easy to look back to the Industrial Revolution and remember the stains on capitalism. I will simply point this out: by the time the government passed labor laws, 80% of the industrial manufacturers had already adopted standards of their own which equaled or bettered the federal set standards. You have to remember: this was the 18th century, people didn't know a third of what they would know even 50 years later. But society came to it's senses. Like what, if politicians dissapeared we would forget the past two hundred years of learning?

[Jerome Scuggs]

Since I'm educating you for free, you might as well get your money's worth. If you follow from the assertion that healthcare is a right, you wind up with the conclusion that there exists a class of humans with no rights - doctors. If I get injured, then a doctor is forced - his own will be damned - to treat me. And what is "treatment" anyways? It's a vague term, one you won't find outside of man's capablities of subjective thinking. So if you follow that line, you realize that such a premise would actually invalidate certain individuals' rights - and make them not human. Clearly doctors are human, with rights, and therefore the premise is false.