Questions for the Euros: Lisbon Treaty

[Exalt]

I haven't seen anyone really discuss this ever, but I'm pretty curious what you all think of it.

I remember it being such a big deal in 2008, because only a SINGLE country allowed its own people to even vote on it, and that country voted no. It was Ireland. Apparently, this was what a lot of people wanted in many countries, but all of them allowed their governments to make decisions without their input.

Now I read that the Irish government just decided to change the laws so that the people had no say whatsoever, and they voted yes for the lisbon treaty. I'm American, so we all grow up based on knowing freedom is what our country stands for in theory, so I cannot imagine having our government ever doing something like this. It sounds like a bunch of countries allowing the EU to become a dictatorship. No one was even allowed to vote on it, and when they voted no, the government just said "fuck you" and signed it anyway.

People would literally start another revolution here if the USA did that. I don't see how 27 countries allowed it to go on without much fuss. No one did anything about it.

From what I know that the Lisbon Treaty does:

It creates a super president that is in office for 2 1/2 years. Basically, this guy is the supreme dictator.

It takes away national veto's, meaning what the EU says, the EU gets. Countries are giving away their soviernty and freedom from the EU.

It creates a EU army, which of course the EU will use for whatever the fuck they want.

It creates an EU "secret police" like the CIA/Interpol.

It creates EU police that are immune from criminal persecution. Basically, they can do whatever the fuck they want, whenever they want.


This sounds like a mix between Nazi Germany and USSR. I can't believe you people fell for this. The EU was supposed to be strictly an economic alliance to prevent massive taxes and tarriffs all over, not to create a superpower EUSSR with secret police that have immunity.

This sounds pretty fucked up. Am I reading the wrong articles, or is this the reality of the situation? I'm surprised none of you really mentioned any of this.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I knew Ireland changed their vote, didn't know they had changed their laws. Source?

[Galleleo]

itt Exalt tries to bait the EU people of the forums into a USA RULES EU debate.

However, Exalt forgets that the US government often puts all kinds of stuff into bills that are in no relation to what that bill is actually about and thus pass all kinds of laws the people wouldn't even want.

Also, you're incorrect. But I don't really feel like going along with your trolling.

[D1st0rt]

I don't think he's trolling, but even if he is I am similarly interested in your thoughts as I was the last time around.

[Nycle]

Warning: mega long answer. I probably got over-excited when I was philosophizing over this while writing this reply.

I'll try answering some of your questions, although before I do I think you should know that I'm currently in my second year of my bachelor's degree in public administration, take an active interest in European political developments, and might some day would want to work for the EU.

Background: the EU started out shortly after the end of WWII as a simple organization aimed at stripping the chiefly warring nations of that time, France and Germany, from their authority to control the two basic resources needed to manufacture weapons: coal and steel. It's no coincidence that it was called the "European Coal and Steel Community" at that time. The ECSC had the authority to act as a federal entity if you like, with its member states' laws subordinate to that of the organization, but only in that particular area. This principle is called supranationalism and for the first time in almost 2000 years forced peace on the continent by making war materially impossible.

It became a lot more after that though. In a changing world, progressive nations naturally want to change their internal political and legal structures in order to cope with or take advantage of the new situations that arise. Since the EU is a treaty based organization, its member states responded to new changes with a series of subsequent treaties. Every single one of them passed on more area's of policy into the competence of the Union. Eventually, so many area's of policy were decided upon on at a supranational (or continental) rather than national level, that it began to look more like a federation than an international organization. Federations are complex and require constitutions to clearly lay out the rights and responsibilities of every party involved, thus in 2005 the European Constitution was introduced to replace all previous treaties and let the EU gain constitutional status (this is just a legal technicality though, in practice it doesn't matter that much). Unfortunately, a lot of people thought this was one step too far and the peoples of France and the Netherlands rejected it in a referendum. It would probably have been rejected in more countries if the ratification process was allowed to continue, but it was already abandoned after two founding countries said no.

That didn't take away the complexity of the EU and the need to streamline its internal processes though, especially after exploding in 2004 when 10 Eastern European states, many of them formerly communistic, acceded to the Union. Making decisions with so many countries involved will prove to be increasingly difficult, causing stalemates. Stalemates that you cannot afford to have, not in a world where things change rapidly and require rapid answers.

So, they came up with the Lisbon treaty. Unlike the European Constitution, it would not replace all previous treaties, but instead amend those already in place. This provided a legal (?) and practical excuse for a lot of governments to ratify the treaty through parliament rather than risking defeat again in a referendum. A wise decision, if you ask me. Ireland however proved to be difficult because a court ruling in the past decided that any change to Ireland's constitution which would lead to reduced sovereignty, would have to be decided upon by the people in a referendum. Two years ago, they rejected it. A few months ago, they (almost overwhelmingly) accepted it. The reason for this is probably fear spawned by the credit crisis, in which Ireland was one of the hardest hit. Not as hard as Iceland though, and many people contribute this to Ireland's membership of the EU and the euro, luxuries which Iceland did not have and caused them to default on their debt. With Ireland being the final country to ratify the treaty, it will now enter into force on December 1st, 2009.

I remember it being such a big deal in 2008, because only a SINGLE country allowed its own people to even vote on it, and that country voted no. It was Ireland. Apparently, this was what a lot of people wanted in many countries, but all of them allowed their governments to make decisions without their input.

Now I read that the Irish government just decided to change the laws so that the people had no say whatsoever, and they voted yes for the lisbon treaty. I'm American, so we all grow up based on knowing freedom is what our country stands for in theory, so I cannot imagine having our government ever doing something like this. It sounds like a bunch of countries allowing the EU to become a dictatorship. No one was even allowed to vote on it, and when they voted no, the government just said "fuck you" and signed it anyway.

This is not correct. The Irish approved the treay in a second referendum. No laws were changed whatsoever, just the opinion of the people of Ireland.

It does not allow the EU to be changed into a dictatorship, on the contrary, any person with the slightest knowledge of the treaty can tell you that it will introduce a series of reforms which, although will reduce the member states' sovereignty in some area's, will at the same time increase transparency and democratic accountability (through the European Parliament).

People would literally start another revolution here if the USA did that. I don't see how 27 countries allowed it to go on without much fuss. No one did anything about it.

Maybe no revolution was started because it is actually a good thing that it happened. Horror stories ranging from dictatorship and fascism to communism will not occur and most people know this. They realize that standing still is moving backwards. The fact of the matter is that people in Europe never had it as good as they do today, a lot of which can be contributed to the EU. As long as people have it good they generally do not take an active interest in the political process and only complain about superficial things.

I could argue that the fact that no revolution has occured actually says something positive about the treaty. European people don't just swallow everything they are presented; if history has taight us anything, then it is that Europe was and perhaps still is one of the regions most prone to revolutions, wars, whatever.

From what I know that the Lisbon Treaty does:

It creates a super president that is in office for 2 1/2 years. Basically, this guy is the supreme dictator.

No, it creates a President of the European Council which will chair the meetings of this institution but has no executive or legislative power. It will give the Union somewhat of a single face, which is better than the 27 we currently have.

It takes away national veto's, meaning what the EU says, the EU gets. Countries are giving away their soviernty and freedom from the EU.

It takes away some veto's, but not in critical area's such as defense. This is no different from any other treaty in the past. It will make the decision making process more efficient.

It creates a EU army, which of course the EU will use for whatever the fuck they want.

It does not create an EU army, but will provide a legal framework for one to be established in the future. This is only likely in the event that NATO will be dismantled or Europe suddenly finds itself faced with an imminent threat, which is all very unlikely. As an added bonus, any country can stop this since this is one of the area's of policy that requires unanimity.

It creates an EU "secret police" like the CIA/Interpol.

It creates EU police that are immune from criminal persecution. Basically, they can do whatever the fuck they want, whenever they want.

Europol has been around for a decade now and holds no executive powers; it merely coordinates police action between member states but is in no way authorized to handle matters on their own. The Lisbon treaty won't change that.

This sounds like a mix between Nazi Germany and USSR. I can't believe you people fell for this. The EU was supposed to be strictly an economic alliance to prevent massive taxes and tarriffs all over, not to create a superpower EUSSR with secret police that have immunity.

This sounds pretty fucked up. Am I reading the wrong articles, or is this the reality of the situation? I'm surprised none of you really mentioned any of this.

I think you're definitely reading the wrong articles. In my opinion, the EU has been one of the best things that has ever happened to this continent and I am happy to see it evolving along with the times instead of standing still. This is nothing personal, but all too often I hear Americans complain about how Europe can't manage anything on its own and pretty much relies on everyone but itself to sustain its security and wealth. Now a step has been taken to change all that, and it's still not good :P

[Galleleo]

I don't think he's trolling, but even if he is I am similarly interested in your thoughts as I was the last time around.

I basically found his whole post to be dripping with: USA is better than you, deal with it. But after Nycle, there is no reason to respond, he can explain it far better than I ever could and he did.

[Cyrus]

I think nycle answered it all!

[D1st0rt]

I basically found his whole post to be dripping with: USA is better than you, deal with it. But after Nycle, there is no reason to respond, he can explain it far better than I ever could and he did.

It was more along the lines of: Coming from an American perspective, I don't understand why you think this is beneficial. All of the information that is readily available to me over here points to these conclusions. Admittedly, I don't get a lot of exposure to the internal workings of the EU, would you please explain so that I might broaden my understanding of issues in a global context.

If you weren't too busy being a dirty euro maybe you could have helped a brother out

[Galleleo]

It was more along the lines of: Coming from an American perspective, I don't understand why you think this is beneficial. All of the information that is readily available to me over here points to these conclusions. Admittedly, I don't get a lot of exposure to the internal workings of the EU, would you please explain so that I might broaden my understanding of issues in a global context.

If you weren't too busy being a dirty euro maybe you could have helped a brother out

Uhm, the "this is a mix between nazi's and the USSR" doesn't exactly say: Hey you guys, I am just wondering here, why is this beneficial?

It was more like: "Hey you guys, me being from the almighty and awesome USA would just like to tell you that you are totally a bunch of nazi fucktards and if you weren't such big pussies and were more like superior human beings like we are you would have totally rioted and broken shit and stuff man... totally."

[project dragon]

Would be easier just to tell us what you feel about it (like Nycle did), instead of being all smug about "lol i just caught you trolling lolol Americans lo l ol "

[Mantra-Slider]

yeah but its pretty easy to see that the only thing exalt wanted with this thread was to bash europe and salute america He hasnt even bothered to comment on nycles post!

Its funny cos the moment I saw this post I knew Nycle would reply with a long ass pro EU post
Im personally still not a big fan of EU and Nycle cant convince me (yet? :fear

[Kim]

Nice post Nycle. I never knew much about the EU and this upcoming Lisbon Treaty, but you've given me a viewing window into the issue, which has piqued my interest on the topic. Would you happen to have any links to additional readings that would pertain to the Lisbon Treaty?

[Dabram]

I'm with Nycle


GO Europe!!

But for me it's mostly just long run dreaming.

It's clear we desperately need some mayor changes in politics/general attitudes for it to work as I'd wish.. Dunno how that's ever gonna happen.. countries like France have a mayor attitude problem and they just suck pretty bad in general at working together with other nations.. and as long as they've a lot of power the EU is always going to be MEH. But yeah without the EU (getting more supranational power) some changes are never gonna happen.

But yeah, I'd wish people (Europeans) would be more grateful of what the EU has done for Europe. Before the EU, never in the history of Europe there has been such a long continuous period of no (mayor) wars within Europe. I think it's save to say that it's unthinkable that any two EU-countries would ever go at war with each other again..
Which is also why I'd look forward to see a country like Turkey joining the EU. Of course when (just like the Eastern European countries) complying to a plan of making some changes. Once they'll see the benefits of being within the EU, they'll be more ready to make changes as well. Turkey joining could create a bridge towards the Middle East. And yes, ideally in the long run it should push forward to the Middle East or maybe first Northern Africa! But then it would also be the time to change the name. Also probably 2050 by then.

But yeah I can see why anyone would be pretty skeptical of the current EU. Especially when you're a Swede like Mantra, and see an EU that's not even half as capable of governing as Sweden..

Also it's way too dominated by catholic right parties!

Also need to get rid of ridiculous agriculture subsidies!

PS. FRIGGING SMILEY LIMIT. HOW CAN I MAKE MY POINT WITHOUT SMILIES>!!!)!@&*$&^@*

[Dabram]

yeah but its pretty easy to see that the only thing exalt wanted with this thread was to bash europe and salute america He hasnt even bothered to comment on nycles post!

Its funny cos the moment I saw this post I knew Nycle would reply with a long ass pro EU post
Im personally still not a big fan of EU and Nycle cant convince me (yet? :fear

u need to start reading the diso forums again.

i decided u have to join the diso-train towards a'dam 2010

(i've no idea what date they're going)

[D1st0rt]

Turkey should be in the EU, they're our boys. France and Germany are too busy sippin' the haterade though.