Racism/discrimination policy

[iNgeNfyRe]

write a program to filter out "bad" words. easy. :turned:

[Fit of Rage]

Apparantly, I'm the only person who finds this ironic - but I think if anyone was being racist in that case, it was the staff member, for acting like black person was a racial insult. And that's the point. It's not.

How dense can you be? The word ****** is used as a derogatory name for blacks. Blacks using it amongst themselves to say "Yo what up my ******" is absolutely retarded. I couldn't give two shits if two black people greet each other in game with "What up ******." They can do it in private chat. Keep it the fuck out of public. Private cannot be monitored, public can. I still can't beleive you don't think the word ****** is a racial insult.

[Dameon Angell]

write a program to filter out "bad" words. easy. :turned:

That goes into the programming of the game itself. I'm pretty sure n***er is bleeped out with the ?obscene block on. So, if you have a problem with the word, you ?obscene and it's gone! Imagine that.

Being on staff, and seeing all this going around, it's out of hand, and bloody retarded. I think we should just let the people decide what they wanna hear and what they don't with ?obscene. And if ?obscene doesn't work, there's gotta be a better way.

[PH]

I shouldn't say too much in this thread since I was constantly in trouble for stretching the rules with the J-word a few months ago, but I will say a few things. Keep in mind this is just my opinion on the matter.

Staff shouldn't even have to step in on this matter because ?obscene is doing its job quite nicely. Some of us aren't bothered by dumbasses who spam us with racist shit, so we turn the obscenity filter off and go on with the game. For those who want to play the game without having to read that shit, they can leave ?obscene alone since the filter is on by default. Yeah, some dumbasses will dodge the filter by replacing the "gg" in the N-word with "99" or something ignorant like that. Go ahead and give them a foot in the ass. But if someone uses the term straight up, I say let them go on about their business of making themselves look retarded, because anyone who sees it exposed themselves to that risk by turning the filter on, and it serves no purpose other than to block out those types of words. Covering their ass isn't solving anything. I understand that most filter evasion is a judgement call, but if people just punch the filter in the face and waltz on by instead of evading it, let them go. They already proved their idiocy by using a racist term in a 2D spaceship game.

[Acidmouse]

I am yet to read from anyone on staff who decides these things why



?obscene



is not enuff to keep the zone happy.

You should not need staff wasting their time warning/banning players for that member of staff's own interpretation of being racisist.

One example is Nethila <Newb> told me the word Jew in "ANY" context is "RACIST" theirfor it was banned from being spoken. What fuking idiot is this guy? How the fuk can someone sneak onto being an <ER> when he still believes "black" "jew" etc etc are NEVER allowed to be spoken.

I prefer the rules not to come down to one persons interpretation.

[Troll King]

You forget one thing, Acidmouse: ALL rules are subject to a staff member's personal interpretation. If a staffer responds to a teamkilling call, he has to make a judgement on whether or not a guy is doing it on purpose or if it was an accident. If a staffer is called in for someone accused of lag-cheating, he has to make the call on whether or not he's intentionally manipulating his lag or if he just has a bad connection. Likewise, for issues of racism, the staffer handling the situation has to make yet another judgement call.

The problem is a lack of education for staffers on how to deal with these issues. All calls are subject to individual judgement but it's important that staff members are trained to make the correct judgements.

[SEAL]

The parents should act responsibly and monitor their child's activities... it's not TW task to babysit, it's the parents responsibility to set up the game properly for their child and to supervise him.

but good luck doing it and good luck continiously fighting the ones who seek the line and try to push it.

i bet 95% doesnt care if ya say ****** anyways.. its a game, remember?

[Troll King]

That's all well and good if you're arguing against children watching movies that are too violent or explicit, but not when you're talking about what those same children are doing and saying. The difference is between being passive or active participants.

We're also dealing with a population that is generally old enough that parents don't babysit them either. They are old enough to be accountable for their actions and that's what it comes down to.

[SEAL]

hence my point.
the fact is it is wrong, but do not forget the REAL world isnt perfect. so dont try to make trenchwars as a fantacy world. people discriminate, beat their wifes and also say the n word outside trenchwars.

if you want to be an active participant, where do you draw the line? someone with a nickname "i burn blacks" or "you are a fag" or "i beat dogs" shouldnt be allowed then too.

the list goes on and on, so why bother and let the people itself have their responsibility. if the population is mature enough itself, then it should realize an insult means nothing over a keyboard. if not, then their parents should be helt responsible, not staff.

[Troll King]

You're right. Those examples should all be equally dealt with. And when I said "active participants" I meant that they aren't just hearing racist things from a produced program but that they themselves are the ones being racist. And as such, if they do something the zone deems wrong then they should be likewise disciplined by the zone. If you want the parents held responsibile then what do you propose, banning them but not their kid?

An insult is made of words and the meaning behind them. Whether they are over the internet or in print or spray-painted onto a synagogue or spat right in your face, the format does not change what it is.

[SEAL]

i would propose not take actions at all. Again, staff aren't babysitters. Drop the policy all. Trenchwars wont turn into a wild wild west or something. Again, so what if someone throws a racist insult at ya? Insults are here now too with newbie and fag, so the only difference is an other word and alot less work for staff.

The "problem" is that a line has been drawn by staff. It's obviously human nature to seek how far they can push that line.

[Troll King]

They aren't acting as "babysitters". Racism is something that should not be tolerated. It's a matter of right and wrong. Why should it be acceptable here when it isn't elsewhere? Just because we don't see each other face to face? It's not a matter of "babysitting" at all. It's about people saying or doing something wrong and being held accountable for it.

If someone pushes the line then they should be dealt with properly. They are fully aware of what they are doing, and I don't see how it's a justifiable defence to say "he's not really racist, he just wanted to break the rules".

I don't see why people have such a problem with the stance TW staff has adopted. The only problems I see are in the execution, not in the reasoning. There are those who say: "who cares? It's not like this is real anyway", and to them I say that the punishment of a warning and a short ban isn't any more "real" anyway, so the punishment fits the deed. It's not like they're tracking them down and notifiying local police of potential hate crimes. Others would say "they can see the same words elsewhere" and I'd answer "fine. That doesn't mean that it should be found here". None of these excuses justify something that is just plain wrong.

[PH]

I know I'm shooting myself in the foot by disagreeing with TK, but I'm going to do it anyway. Again, these are just my opinions.

[opinionated ranting from a cynical asshole]

When used properly, ?obscene and the ignore functions would solve almost any need for staff intervention on this matter. If you don't care what someone says to you in a 2D spaceship game, turn the filter off and play. If you'd rather play without the racism and homophobia that 99% of players (mostly pubbers) use to try and piss each other off, leave the filter on and play. Simple enough, right?

Now, say you have the filter on and someone calls you, for example, the N-word, but they bastardize it with an "!" or a "99" or throwing an "h" into the word to get it past the filter. Staff, this would be your cue to put a foot in the offender's ass and continue on. He has no place in the game if he's just breaking rules in an effort to offend someone. He also knows it's against the rules because he's bastardizing a word that's blocked by the filter to get it through, so don't buy the "I didn't know" bullshit.

On the other side of the coin, the obscenity filter is there for one reason: to filter out offensive material. Those who turn it off expose themselves to the risk of seeing something that's, guess what, offensive. They are responsible for what they see, because they have the option of leaving it on, and it's their fault if they don't exercise it.

My point is, if someone straight-up blurts out the N-word or anything else that currently constitutes a bannable offense, the only people that will see it have the filter turned off by choice. You can't give a loaded gun to someone that hates you and then bitch and moan when they ventilate your ass with it. Use some common sense. You expose yourself to seeing obscenities when you disable the filter. If you're that fucking perturbed by something that you leave yourself open for, put the offender on ?ignore or ignore.txt and get on with the game. Worry about more important things. I don't condone racism, but a lot of people won't see what he said anyway.

Bottom line: people who are evading the filter pose a bigger problem than the people who are barreling into it with a Sherman tank. Those who really want to be protected from offensive shit other players say are automatically taken care of, but what's there to protect the players who DON'T want to see it should a player come along and bastardize the offensive words? One word: staff. A properly educated staff that stays on their toes would go a long way in cleaning up the filth around the zone, because the bots can't catch every mutation of every offensive word.

[/opinionated ranting from a cynical asshole]

Feel free to lynch me and make me look like a fucking idiot now, TK.

[SEAL]

pure hatred, this is an discussionboard, therefore you bring opinions together. it isnt about being wrong or right, but about sharing your thoughts. but i know you were sarcastic. you learn something for mr-i-have-a-iq-of-180 and tk learns something of your simplicity (note im joking so dont reply to this or argue this seriously)

as far as to you troll king. im not saying that it can be found anywhere so why bother blocking it here. for example, over here you NEVER have alcohol tests. in fact, those alcohol test thingies arent legal messurements so its imposible to get a ticket for drunken driving. this doesn NOT say you can drink and drive. no futher explanation needed i think. and finally here comes the but.
but,
if you draw a line in the sand you have to stand for it. why can i type ****** in our squad chat? why is fuck disallowed and wtf not? why can i get a nickname "i beat my wife", etc etc.

its all about consistence.

and here comes the answer to my question: because its way too much work. adding wtf, swear words in foreign languages and thousands more words to obsene list, is just alot of work.

i think, why bother to it if you dont have the capacity to block it all. consistence..

[Troll King]

You miss the point, Pure Hatred. It's not a matter of sheltering people from racism, it's the fact that racism is wrong period. That's why I disagree with Seal's use of the term "babysitting". This is not about protecting virgin ears from being seared with blazing hate filled words, it's about how using those words is just plain wrong.

Your "giving them a loaded gun" analogy is a bit off too. It's more like giving everyone a suit of body armour so they won't get hurt if a gun-toting maniac goes on a shooting spree. Your view is that anyone who doesn't want to get shot should wear their body armour, but it ignores the fact that there's someone going around on a shooting spree!

What you're proposing is that people should be allowed to be racist if people who don't like racism can't hear them. Not only does that system ignore the moral aspect, all it will do is make people try to circumvent the block like you mentioned. It's a stop-gap solution and a flawed one at that.

On a more technical matter, I don't like the use of an automated system to handle these issues. That's why I've always disagreed with a pubbot that flags certain words. I've always been a proponent of context and your idea will filter out whole lines of text blindly without bothering with context. There are many legitimate uses for "Jew", for example, that you can't place it on the obscenity block, but there are also many ways that "Jew" is used in a derogatory manner. These issues are never clear-cut and I disagree with using an automatic system that treats this as a black or white issue (no pun intended).

I believe the best thing is for staff members to be taught how to handle race issues because many are so intimidated by the issue of race that they treat any mention of it as racism. Teach them to use common sense and to determine the context and whether it was a one-shot comment or if it's a continuing behaviour. I don't have a problem with people who blurt something out and nobody complains or everyone let's it go as a heat of the moment event. I'm not saying staff should go gangbusters on anyone who says "Jew". The problem comes when it's more than a one-shot comment. Though it's still wrong, if it doesn't look like it's going to continue or escalate, then that's it. I think that the system itself right now is fine, but that staff is poorly trained to deal with it.

I think I mentioned it in a different thread, but I think racism should be treated like any other rule in TW. Not every teamkill results in mods arriving at the scene with their finger on the ban-hammer. When someone TKs and someone reports it, then a staff member comes in and monitors the situation. If he sees the teamkilling continuing then he acts. I think racism should be the same. When someone reports racism, a staffer should go and monitor the situation. If it doesn't continue, then case closed, if it continues, then start with the warning and other sanctions. There is no reason why racism should be treated differently from any other offence in TW.