Pure basing and LT Proliferation.

[MagiWyvern]

I dont know how to start this thread, but, here goes. Also this consist of clouded memories from a time when i was more newb than i am now. And, i must iterate that while I am in a pub I am LTing almost 66% of the time. Here goes.

When i first started playing ss in tw in fall of 2003, it seemed that everyone's prime concern was basing. Sure, there were 1 or 2 Warbirds that would hang out in the spawn, but mostly they were people duking it out in either mid or the fr.

There were maybe 1 or 2 LTs floating around, and maybe 2 or 3 levs in the spawn, and their attacks seemed more random, and to me, didnt seriously disrupt basing.

But now.... you go to any arena other than a Pure Basing arena and it is filled with LTs... I think at one time I counted 8 in an Arena. When the Pure Pubs were introduced an old friend of mine while we were in Pure Pub said "all the non pure arenas have basically become LT dueling arenas". Levis are everywhere. About 60% of these levs and terrs are either completely new 'faces' to me or they are aliased.

And the attitude I get from these players is pretty much the same attitude you get from the blob of warbirds hanging out at the spawn. "mine." "my kill" "mine" "stfu"... pretty much the level of competence that I noticed the seagulls have in that 'finding nemo movie'

When i look back at the Pub of my past filled with old friends, and People who taught me to LT, I realise the comradeship we had. And the Skill level that was there... as well as the LT community.... there was a level of elitism that I thought was fundemental to LTing... hell it was hard for me to learn because no one would teach me.

Now every newb can LT... its common to see a third of an arena using levs... another third laming the spawn and the few die hard basers... Proliferation. The skill level is gone... The community is gone... all my LT chats were deserted long ago. Proliferation.

This proliferation has destroyed basing in the pubs, to the point where true basing has to be done in either special bot controlled pubs where levs are not allowed or in sub arenas such as ?go base ?go rockbase. In some memories i had pubbing the defense in the fr and mid was so good and the battle intense enough where it pretty much came down to a LT to put one freq over top of the other to win that fight. In some situations Levs and LTs contributed more to the basing than all the spiders and javs combined. But not anymore, why? Proliferation. Any newb can do it. Used to be a LT was just something that happened, no need to fuss about it, just suck it up and either hunt it, or go back to basing.

I personally as a LTer and a baser seriously think that LTing should be more elitist. I think it should take More skill to pull off. And I personally think that the basing player community shouldnt have to run off to bot controlled pubs and sub arenas to get away from it.

So, how do you cut down on this Proliferation of LTing and raise the skill level required?

Personally I think it comes down to a few things.

1. Raise the minimum bty for a lev to attach... its far to easy to green a lev once at a safe... let him kill you twice and bingo. Raising this value will make it more of a pain for terrs to green levs and it would also be detrimental to LTing with newer levs/terrs... I for one would not green a Levi if he had to kill me 8 times at a safe, if, while actually LTing he could only get 3 kills before screwing up and getting us all killed.

2. Portal Restrictions... Portals should not be able to be placed in a safe. There simple, done. Half of your LTs much less levs would be gone before they got a good start... without a portal in a safe it is far to easy for hunters, and stray bullets/bombs to take out that levi. Im, not saying do away with portals, i just dont think that allowing putting a portal in a safe is such a good idea...

3. Harsher Restrictions on ship changes... this nocks out both Terrs trying to regain portals and sharks riding shot gun to regain reps....

This is my opinion, as a LTer, and a baser. I know other LTers and Basers will disagree, and will probably flame me for this post, half of you wont even read the entire thing.

And In closing I think that it is unfair for the player community to have to go to pure pubs or sub arenas to actually base. I think that LTing should be a more elitist affair. And I think that that cloud of newb warbirds in the spawn should go away, but hey...

p.s. Staff please, do not go and change the settings at all without some serious thought... that whole weasel fiasco is still scabbing over.

[Sarien]

But now.... you go to any arena other than a Pure Basing arena and it is filled with LTs... I think at one time I counted 8 in an Arena. When the Pure Pubs were introduced an old friend of mine while we were in Pure Pub said "all the non pure arenas have basically become LT dueling arenas". Levis are everywhere. About 60% of these levs and terrs are either completely new 'faces' to me or they are aliased.

An LT player even recognizes it, and yet the staff doesn't. Amusing.

And the attitude I get from these players is pretty much the same attitude you get from the blob of warbirds hanging out at the spawn. "mine." "my kill" "mine" "stfu"... pretty much the level of competence that I noticed the seagulls have in that 'finding nemo movie'

This would be the selfish behavior that I have referred to time and time again, that this ship inspires. The same behavior that inspires the next quote..

This proliferation has destroyed basing in the pubs, to the point where true basing has to be done in either special bot controlled pubs where levs are not allowed or in sub arenas such as ?go base ?go rockbase. In some memories i had pubbing the defense in the fr and mid was so good and the battle intense enough where it pretty much came down to a LT to put one freq over top of the other to win that fight. In some situations Levs and LTs contributed more to the basing than all the spiders and javs combined. But not anymore, why? Proliferation. Any newb can do it. Used to be a LT was just something that happened, no need to fuss about it, just suck it up and either hunt it, or go back to basing.

I personally as a LTer and a baser seriously think that LTing should be more elitist. I think it should take More skill to pull off. And I personally think that the basing player community shouldnt have to run off to bot controlled pubs and sub arenas to get away from it.

As a baser and pub player, I think LT'ing needs to become a relic of the past. It needs to be shut down, and hard, because odds are good that even though it might not have been as numerous in the past, it still affected people, and obviously has inspired things to where they are now.

1. Raise the minimum bty for a lev to attach... its far to easy to green a lev once at a safe... let him kill you twice and bingo. Raising this value will make it more of a pain for terrs to green levs and it would also be detrimental to LTing with newer levs/terrs... I for one would not green a Levi if he had to kill me 8 times at a safe, if, while actually LTing he could only get 3 kills before screwing up and getting us all killed.

Minimum bounties aren't going to do anything. All it ends up being is "what is required". You might not kill yourself 8 times, but lots of these guys, 8 or 18, or 58, it doesn't matter. They'll do what it takes to get to the sweet meat of being able to annoy people.

2. Portal Restrictions... Portals should not be able to be placed in a safe. There simple, done. Half of your LTs much less levs would be gone before they got a good start... without a portal in a safe it is far to easy for hunters, and stray bullets/bombs to take out that levi. Im, not saying do away with portals, i just dont think that allowing putting a portal in a safe is such a good idea...

Can't see it doing anything but forcing them to just drop a portal right next to the safe, instead.

3. Harsher Restrictions on ship changes... this nocks out both Terrs trying to regain portals and sharks riding shot gun to regain reps....

It's pub, ship changing should be pretty free. They just shouldn't have a reason to do it to begin with.

This is my opinion, as a LTer, and a baser. I know other LTers and Basers will disagree, and will probably flame me for this post, half of you wont even read the entire thing.

And In closing I think that it is unfair for the player community to have to go to pure pubs or sub arenas to actually base. I think that LTing should be a more elitist affair. And I think that that cloud of newb warbirds in the spawn should go away, but hey...

p.s. Staff please, do not go and change the settings at all without some serious thought... that whole weasel fiasco is still scabbing over.

I did read all you had to say. I do think the staff needs to be careful about changing settings, but in this instance just about anything they could do to see it with a red bomb instead of a blue one, could be tolerated, at least by me.

[MagiWyvern]

As a baser and pub player, I think LT'ing needs to become a relic of the past. It needs to be shut down, and hard, because odds are good that even though it might not have been as numerous in the past, it still affected people, and obviously has inspired things to where they are now.

I dont think that it should go that far, personally thats your opinion and i will fight you tooth and nail on it... to me the LT is alot like the wb... its one of those things that makes tw, well... tw.

They'll do what it takes to get to the sweet meat of being able to annoy people.

If you seriously think that im in it to annoy other players... LOL, im in it because I like high bounty, and i love the skill involved in alot of the shots and the fluid movement from shot to shot without death. For me, and alot of other people, especially those in the squad im in its about bounty and skill.

Also my suggestions were only that, suggestions...
I dont presume to think that players will not find a way around these changes....

As far as basing... every action has a reaction... some one levs in the fr... you get a weasel and x him... a lev in the fr is basing, however lame you think it is, its a defense of that fr, and hence it should have a reaction... just like a lt and anti... or warbirds and spiders.

Bottom line... no matter what you do... LTing or X'ing the bottom line is basing should be the main goal. And players should not have to go to other arenas to base.

Its a sad day when the Pub Arenas are not where the player community goes to do what that zone intends them for... tw is a basing zone... but, no one bases in the pubs. sad. I feel somewhat ashamed by this. but, then again i contribute to this problem... seems i have walked out onto a tightrope here.

[Troll King]

Go check this thread out:
Pub Timed Matches

I know it's a long read, but it's very much relevant to what you're discussing, especially in the last few pages or so.

[MagiWyvern]

Go check this thread out:
Pub Timed Matches

I know it's a long read, but it's very much relevant to what you're discussing, especially in the last few pages or so.

Yes, but once again... thats in a Pure Pub, and thats a bot restricted pub, which i would consider a sub arena. Not mainstream Pubbing if you ask me. (i didnt read to much into it)

Also im shocked that people are now attacking the levi in this thread, with that yaddi yadda about pure pubs being a quick fix because no one wanted to remove the levi. BS. Grade A Bullshit. Goes to show how newb some of these people are. Before Pure bub we had Pure basing weekends, Levis could not attach, no lts, none, whatsoever, and i tell you what even with the lev still around those weekends were some of the best basing i have ever seen, sure i may be delusional in my memory but i enjoyed them even if i wasnt lting...

p.s. i do not appreciate the stab at me in that thread saying take away the levi and i'll leave... nothing could be farther from the truth... take away my lev and i'll green a jav to max shrap and rip you a new one on the roof. once again im in it for the skill and the player community. im not some sick bastard who pulls the wings off of flies.

you know what... screw this and that other thread... im sick and tired of people like Sarien and Tone and all those newbs who screw with the settings... shit like this is why im gonna go all elitist, dust off my kill macros and newb bash until they take my lev, my jav, my shark, and my warbird away. no mercy.

[Sarien]

Man, I think you misunderstood my intent.
I didn't mean you. You made more than patently obious that you don't LT for the same reasons as the new "no skill" guys, remember?
You LT for your reasons, and I can see that, and I don't deny for a moment that is for you why you do it. But you should also realize that you are a minority now among LT players, for just that reason. Those same guys that you look down on for having no skill? They're doing it because they can jack up a basing game for everybody, and I see them say as much on chat while they're doing it.

If you had read the other thread, you'd see me and TK both, as well as Moot and some others are saying that they shouldn't be directing attention to Pure pubs, that they should be working on the public system as a whole.

Feel free to call me a "newb" or "newb bash" me all you like. It doesn't quite have an effect on me, because I've never felt bad being a nobody.

I do think however you might kind of owe us a bit of an apology considering the circumstances, that we're essentially on the same side.

[MagiWyvern]

Feel free to call me a "newb" or "newb bash" me all you like. It doesn't quite have an effect on me, because I've never felt bad being a nobody.

I do think however you might kind of owe us a bit of an apology considering the circumstances, that we're essentially on the same side.

LOL... bash on the forums? what do you think i am, a monster? in game, yes. I never called YOU a newb, if i did i would have said "Sarien your a newb"... but some of the post in the other thread were off the wall and not even close to right... especially that BS about pure pubs being a quick fix to change the lev. :annoyed: .. its just that... change is good and bad... I for one like the small weasel... and of all the changes and versions the fall 2003 setting was the best... it took skill... big weasels suck... and that 1 rep... LOL.

But seriously i think that stuff belongs in the other thread... so i will stop... and no i wont post there because of some idiots i dislike.

back to topic... LT proliferation... its bad... any ideas on how to stop it short of taking away the lev... and keeping skill involved?
p.s. that "omfg u stupid newbie" line under my name... thats an old ultima online thing... pay no attention to that. i should change it...

[Troll King]

Again, take a look at the thread I linked, especially the last few pages or so.

[Kolar]

Pure Publics were a quick fix for Public Basing. If you can find someway of making small changes like TK has suggested that would allow Upper staff to not remove the Levi or Levi Terring entirely, please do suggest it. We need to focus on public basing as a whole before we can move the ideas from the pure publics that directly encourages basing into other public arenas.

[CloudHelmut]

Well there's been a big surge in levs recently, the reason is obvious- they goosed them up without taking anything away. It's annoying for me because I WANTED levs to get a little more maneuveurability, in fact I want them to have a high nrg drain xradar too, but it was a mistake to give it to them without weakening their weapon.

IMHO, you've got to lower the range on the blue bomb. Nothing ruins basing more than having to chase down some guy bombing/bountying up from the low right safe. I personally would make the range really tight, only slightly further than radar view. When I drive a lev I go to a lot of trouble to see what the fuck I'm shooting at, I don't TK much even if I die a little more. Playing with the range may help force LTs to be "in the game", not staking out faraway bombing points.

Also, In some way you have to lower the damage the bomb puts out. Either simply lower damage or (my preference) shrink the radius of effect.


Specifically for LTs:

Look at the game settings for disallowing "friend kills". I know you can set it up so you don't get bounty if you keep killing the same nme player. This could restrict the old "hey can someone green me" crap, lazy levs.

I'm not sure how possible this is with game settings but could you drop a terr's ship speed when it has someone attached?

[Theif of Time]

pretty much the level of competence that I noticed the seagulls have in that 'finding nemo movie'

LOL I remember those seagulls.

Cloud: Yes, its possible. Turrets move slower and suffer penaltys when attached. This would indeed affect Lting, but also basing terriers aswell (how annoying would it be to be accelerating really fast and then someone attaches and you slow down and get killed...)
Perhaps just decrease the thrust, not the top speed, if that is possible. Eg: see the weasel (attachable) in ?go camelot, once it is turreted it cannot move at all.

[CloudHelmut]

Just the thrust might be a good idea to try first Thief. Maybe also slow the turret's rotation speed?

The point is that hopefully the staff can specifically change terr/turrets abilities without requiring the ships as individuals be modified.

[Theif of Time]

Yes I'm aware my name is spelt wrong.
The only problem is, I'm not sure if its possible to change turret settings for only one ship. And rotation speed is a built in thing, could possibly be changed by a bot using prizes and negative prizes, but not in the settings.

[CloudHelmut]

Heh, I usually just cut'paste names, dang. :turned:

If they have to resort to bots it's probably not the way to go. It wouldn't be so bad if ALL turrets lost some turn speed, especially if the terr retains it's top speed.

[Krusnik]

I don't know if someone has mentioned this, but a good way to fix the levi terr problem is to somehow find a way to limit the terr's maneuverability only when it has some1 attached. The problem isn't only with levi terrs though its spreading into different kind of terrs now. Like st's (spider terrs) and lat's (lancaster terriers).