?go Base captains!

[Miku19]

Usage is only semi-relevant when talking about skill and attitude.
A guy can be just great without any usage, but a guy can be a total jackass even if he had 5000 hours of usage.

[Rab]

Eph, u want an objective, we gave u 2. Don't like it? Have a go at writing your own.

[Troll King]

You're missing his point. People tend to think about two main objectives: to have the most competitive game possible and to give more players the opportunity to play, but they differ and you cannot achieve both at the same time. He's saying that, if we want to make any changes and improve things, we have to know what defines improvement. He's not complaining about us not having any objectives or that the objectives listed aren't good enough, he's saying that the zone don't have one clear and single one. One group of people wants to go right, the other half wants to go left, but until we decide on a clear direction, all we'll do is wobble back and forth like Zeus after a Saturday night drinking binge.

[moltenrock]

=)

No one gives a crap. =D

It's a game, and people dont learn to cap unless they practice. First time I was cap, I had no clue what the hell I was doing. I still don't, but that's not the point. People dont yell at me anymore....much. =D

Everyone just needs a little practice.

[Rab]

if all caps were the same we may as well let the bot pick teams.

[Ephemeral]

if all caps were the same we may as well let the bot pick teams.

And what would be the first thing that someone would have to know before writing a Bot? Exactly what I am saying, should the Bot pick players based upon some 'vet' or experience measurement, or should the Bot be randomized somehow to allow newer player a chance.

Rab, suppose I came to you and asked you to develop a web site for my company, "Widgets Are Us'. If you are successful with this site, I can commit to you 3 more big web sites.
What is the next step?
If you are smart, you wouldn’t even begin development until you asked me a bunch of 'high level' questions. Questions like, 'What kind of web site, an informational site about Widgets or do you want to sell Widgets off the site?'. Basically I would have to define the objective of the site. Why? Because if I don’t do that (and you don’t ask), you risk the chance of making the wrong kind of site.

As to your comment on, "Have a go at writing your own", I am more than willing to write an objective statement for TW, for the ?go base or anything else. Takes all of about 5 minutes. Consider all the crap that people have struggled with over the last 5 years in TW because we don’t have direction, like staff issues and turnover. Epi brought this very same issue up about a year ago.
But as easy as it is to write down the objective, it would only be my opinion. What really has to happen is Dock, or whoever 'owns' TW, needs to supply the input of what HE wants TW to be.
Frankly, the answer is probably not what many want to hear. If Dock really wanted TW to grow, I would think that he would have already stated this loud and clear to upper staff. But by not giving any objective or purpose to TW at that level, I assume he really doesn’t care that much about it's direction. It appears he doesn’t want TW to go away, but he is not that interested in growth either. TW simply exists.
Here is where the trouble starts, we have people who think TW should grow, become bigger and better. It is hard to get people to join a staff that simply 'exists'. Most people want to see progress, feel like they are making a difference.
And we wonder why a lot of the 'movers and shakers' have left staff? We wonder why we see good staffers suddenly start backing down on their roles? If the purpose of TW is to simply exist, then what kind of people would you want on staff? You certainly won’t want 'movers and shakers', people who are going to try to drive the growth of TW. No, you would be better off with people with a lot less motivation and a lot more patience.

The alternative, as I stated before, is that we all stop whining about this and that and deal with the fact that TW simply exists. We stop caring (and posting) about staff, arenas, events, noobs, broken bots, rules, or if anything is fair or not. We can not have things both ways. Meaning we can't have a TW that simply exists while we all bitch about trying to make it bigger or better.

[Rab]

Ah I think I see what you mean now.

The only thing is, it's nobody's job to define what TW is. TW does just exist. It is a community, and no single person makes it what it is. Personally I think that's why it's a success.

Sure, you could write a mission statement for go base, or even for the whole of TW - but there really is no point - because TW IS A COLLECTION OF INDIVIDUALS: Players & Captains who have different preferences; "Who buys Widgets?".

I suppose nobody would argue that the aim of capping is to make the game fun for as many people as possible. That could include picking squaddies, it could include winning, but usually it's just about having a competetive 15-20 minutes.

[geekbot]

You're missing his point. People tend to think about two main objectives: to have the most competitive game possible and to give more players the opportunity to play, but they differ and you cannot achieve both at the same time. He's saying that, if we want to make any changes and improve things, we have to know what defines improvement.

I don't think I'm missing the point. He's asking for what defines improvement and I'm saying that's way too much thinking for what go base is.

I'm not defining an objective, I'm saying go base is like recess. Telling people the right way to spend their recess in order to maximize fun, maximize competitiveness, maximize anything is over analyzing. If someone kid wants to eat dirt in a corner, that's cool (we probably shouldn't let him choose kickball teams.) If he's doesn't want to move off the outfield, fine, we will play kickball around him and not get too mad (or try not to laugh too hard) if the ball takes a bad bounce off his head. Doink.

[Ephemeral]

I don't think I'm missing the point. He's asking for what defines improvement and I'm saying that's way too much thinking for what go base is.

I'm not defining an objective, I'm saying go base is like recess. Telling people the right way to spend their recess in order to maximize fun, maximize competitiveness, maximize anything is over analyzing. If someone kid wants to eat dirt in a corner, that's cool (we probably shouldn't let him choose kickball teams.) If he's doesn't want to move off the outfield, fine, we will play kickball around him and not get too mad (or try not to laugh too hard) if the ball takes a bad bounce off his head. Doink.

Your perspective is absolutely fine with me. Now you simply need to convince all these other people that this is just ‘recess’ and there is no point in trying to make things better. Recess is, after all and just like you described, simply a bunch of kids having fun anyway they see fit. No one needs to be making suggestions on improving anything, if someone wants to eat dirt more power to him/her.

Just out of curiosity, you have previously posted a perspective that TW was more than ‘recess’, like these;

I like it Rudy.

But instead of a three minute timeout, a one minute timeout where the bot says you have been randomly chosen to cap and asks if you are awake. Respond with :yes. The bot asks if you know how to cap. Anything but another :yes chooses different random cap. If you respond yes matchbot reminds you about :!help, wishes you luck, and away we go.

The first cap to yes 2 times gets first pick. No one ever mentions the huge advantage 1st cap gets but I think it's significant.

I don't play pub often at all (i only play base or TWD). The last time I did it was pub 15 (not pure pub). There was about 5v5 basing happening, I terred and it was fun.

go base has been a little more empty than usual. Go out and tell your friends, your classmates, you little brother's friends. It only takes 10-20 people to get pub basing going and only 20 to get go base going. A handful more people getting on at random times will help push things back to pretty stable activity (not that it's so terrible now).

I don't think we need to get more people into basing specifically. There's pure pub, base, twbd arenas. If people know how to change arenas, they will get to see basing in action. Maybe it's hard for them to get into but that's the nature of any highly cooperative team game. Even so, they can start basing in any pub. We all started in pubs. ?go base used to be private. As in you couldn't find it if you wanted to.

No, seriously, go base is lacking good sharks. Who's up for the challenge? Practice up, people.

You even seemed to agree that squads/squad leaders needed to have a purpose or objective for a squad,

I think many of the people named in this thread are named because they have real leadership skills more than just babysitting. I don't know much about Sumpson but look at Quirion/Basing Crew. That's a great example of a specific vision of how to run a squad and develop players. Paladen has a pretty specific picture, you could call it a "goal" of what they are about. That comes from leadership. Yes, it's different than real life but motivating people and creating a team nonetheless.

It's easy in SS to provide consequences- bring out the axe. The early days of RB we had very real recruiting/axing criteria based on loyalty, being active, etc. That came from and was enforced by PaulO/FoR.

Have you changed your perspective about TW?

[Rab]

Eph get over it. If you don't enjoy capping, don't cap - period.

[Troll King]

I'm not defining an objective, I'm saying go base is like recess. Telling people the right way to spend their recess in order to maximize fun, maximize competitiveness, maximize anything is over analyzing. If someone kid wants to eat dirt in a corner, that's cool (we probably shouldn't let him choose kickball teams.) If he's doesn't want to move off the outfield, fine, we will play kickball around him and not get too mad (or try not to laugh too hard) if the ball takes a bad bounce off his head. Doink.

Ah, but if we should treat go base like recess, then that too is an objective. That's his point again. If what you're saying is what go base should be, then that defines how we do, or do not, make any adjustments, and in this case, you're arguing for less fine tuning. But this is different from others who think it should be about maximizing competitiveness. They will want to do things that you don't seem to feel necessary.

What Eph is talking about isn't about saying that everyone should play a certain way, but about how we look at the big picture. This is how you look at the picture, but that too is a mission statement.

[geekbot]

Your perspective is absolutely fine with me. Now you simply need to convince all these other people that this is just ‘recess’ and there is no point in trying to make things better.

...

Just out of curiosity, you have previously posted a perspective that TW was more than ‘recess’, like these;

I didn't say there isn't a point in making it better. If you want to that's cool. I have tried a bit myself- including couple of posts asking people to play and enjoy base with me. I do need 15 other people and at least 4 sharks. I'm allowed to voice what I think would be fun without having to define a mission/objective or having one defined for me, right?

My point is a "mission statement" or a "constant reinforcement of the objective so everyone has the correct expectations" as you put it is overkill. Do we really need to enforce the "correct objective"? Do you really need that before you will start capping? Why even play if you don't know the "objective"? If you are concerned about people complaining about the way you cap, ignore them or keep a file of witty zingers to keep them quiet. Or just let them talk- it's not a big deal and I'm sure many others would be happy that you are willing to cap.

Your last question- no, I never thought that a squad *needs* a specific purpose or objective. My post was in a thread about what makes a good leader. A leader can provide squads with direction/goals/objectives. If you want to play competitively in TWL (or have some other goals), that can be a good thing. If you don't, then it doesn't matter. But leaders that do a good job are people that commit energy and leadership skill for a squad's benefit and should be commended.

[Rab]

Yeah it is like recess. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved. Who isn't gonna want a longer recess, or bigger playground?

[Ephemeral]

Yeah it is like recess. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved. Who isn't gonna want a longer recess, or bigger playground?

Like a web site, just make it bigger and better and everything will be ok. It doesn't matter what the person wanted for the site, doesn't matter if a site was developed that the customer didn't want, just make it bigger and better.

And Rab as I have said like 3 times now, I don't give a shit whether or not there is a objective or not. I do care about the endless threads/posts to make something out of TW when it will never happen as long as things are like this.

I would say that those people who want to argue with me about this should instead be jumping on people who whine about fixing anything in TW. Roll out the argument that 'this is just recess and no one should care anymore about it more than that' and beat them over the head with it.

[Rab]

I never accept Cap in ?go base.
I don't because I don't understand how I am supposed to do it. And it hasn't nothing to do with !add, or my ability to make a decision, or my ability to chose the best players out of any given group.

Can someone point me to some instructions that describe what the intent of ?go Base is and how captains are suppose to pick? Questions I have are:

- Do you pick with the intent of winning THAT game at any cost?
- Do you pick with the intent of encouraging newer players to come into the game?
- Is it ok to pick with the intent of just making sure that you play yourself?
- Is it ok to be captain and play at same time?
- Do you try to 'reward' those people who don't spam during the lineup period by choosing them?
- Do you play certain ships to make the game more 'fun' or do you play ships that you think have best chance to win?

My opinion, and the bottom line for me, is that without a clearly defined objective of the arena we have many people playing for many different reasons. Some play for fun, some play only to win, some might even play to encourage growth in the game in general. People like Fair have a valid point, how can anyone expect a good competitive game if we have two captains who are picking with different objectives? If captain of Team1 picks with the intent of winning at any cost, and the captain of Team2 picks a fairly good team but allows at least one newer player the opportunity to play, chances are that the game will not be competitive, captain of Team2 will get flamed, and no one has a good time.
Putting people with different reasons for playing all together in the same arena, and just sitting back, is a sure way to cause the problems that we see.
The answer seems clear to me, someone in power define what the ?go base objective is. If it is deemed to be a good thing for TW, perhaps make 2 or 3 different ?go Base arenas with different objectives. I don’t think it should be about usage hours, it should be about matching up the reasons people play that arena.

yawn.