Kill the crime, not the ship

[za gophar]

I know there is already a thread on this, but I feel that my idea was ignored because of the other pointless arguments that were going on.

Limiting the number of javs in the purepub is stupid because:
1. displaces TKing javs to other pubs
2. makes it next to impossible to play jav in pure pub
3. the people who actually do get jav could still be tking newbies
3a. the people who dont get jav could be friendly, non-tking javs
4. taking away jav makes the pub just a bit too much like ?go base, imo

why not just limit the number of tks a person can do through use of a bot?
1 TK: warning
2 TKs: ship change
3 TKs: ban, or something similar

doesn't this make a bit more sense? theoretically, people can be reported after 1 tk, and if a mod sees them do it again, they are warned. if they do it yet another time, they are banned. therefore, 3 tks should be the ban limit. you have no reason to complain about a ban if you knew damn well that you would be banned after 3tks.

i like to play jav in pure pub because i never get picked in jav in ?go base. i am pretty much never going to be able to now that there is a jav limit.

why do too many people play it? because it's FUN. dont remove something because it is too FUN. that defeats the whole purpose of the game (to have fun). just punish people who abuse it.

[za gophar]

in addition, give people engine freeze if they tk. i think i have seen that done somewhere.

[Ephemeral]

why do too many people play it? because it's FUN. dont remove something because it is too FUN. that defeats the whole purpose of the game (to have fun). just punish people who abuse it.

But that is the point, what is fun for you may not be fun for someone else. Just a day or two ago I asked Swimkid why he was spawning in ?go javs. His reply was that it was fun. Some might think it is fun to bring Thors into the game. Some think that cloaking is fun.

My opinion is that the reason TW has always had a bunch of bitching, whining, high staff turnover is that it does not have a stated purpose from the 'owners' of the game. They certainly do not seem to care if TW grows and becomes more popular. In fact, due to the cost involved with maintaining the servers, it could be that they do NOT wish it to become more popular.

[za gophar]

But that is the point, what is fun for you may not be fun for someone else. Just a day or two ago I asked Swimkid why he was spawning in ?go javs. His reply was that it was fun. Some might think it is fun to bring Thors into the game. Some think that cloaking is fun.

My opinion is that the reason TW has always had a bunch of bitching, whining, high staff turnover is that it does not have a stated purpose from the 'owners' of the game. They certainly do not seem to care if TW grows and becomes more popular. In fact, due to the cost involved with maintaining the servers, it could be that they do NOT wish it to become more popular.

that's a good point and all, but doesnt it still stand that the reason people hate javs in purepub is the TKing? i feel that with my proposal we can eliminate the problem without taking away the fun. it is a win-win situation.

what i am saying is that sure, i am trying to get my way with this proposal, but i dont think that it is stopping anyone else from having fun their way (unless their way of having fun is tking).

[Ephemeral]

that's a good point and all, but doesnt it still stand that the reason people hate javs in purepub is the TKing? i feel that with my proposal we can eliminate the problem without taking away the fun. it is a win-win situation.

what i am saying is that sure, i am trying to get my way with this proposal, but i dont think that it is stopping anyone else from having fun their way (unless their way of having fun is tking).

Understood, and in my opinion you are making very good suggestions.

But I guess my point is really about ALL the posts over the years making suggestions and offering ideas. Even PL (and other staffers) fall into this 'trap'. Rather than thinking about things from the 'bottom up', consider things from the 'top down'.

If you think of this from the 'top down', you begin with the 'purpose' of TW. If we all decided to go fishing this weekend, what is the purpose? Some of us might want to go to sit with friends and drink a few cold ones. Some might want to actually try to catch some fish. These two objectives do not really sync up. Having guys getting buzzed, horsing around in the boat, talking loud isn't what the guys who want to be serious about catching some fish are going to want to see that. So it's important to know what the objective is for the fishing trip.
Now consider this from the 'bottom up' without having any purpose to the trip. We can argue forever over the type of bait we should use, type of beer we should bring, the best spot to go fishing. What is the point of doing this? Suggesting a really great spot to fish is fantastic, but if the purpose of the trip is to get drunk and sit with friends, who cares? Suggesting a great place to buy the beer cheap and a great place to sit in the boat and watch hot women in bathing suits is a great idea, but if we really want to catch fish, who cares?

[Fluffz]

javs are so useless and thats the problem. all they do is shoot trough some hole, only caring about their record and getting some high bounty. i do it myself! its the only thing this ship is good for.

and dont pretend you are playing different, you were one of the loudest guys demanding xradar for jav so you could camp around somewhere. as someone who actually bases in pub i can tell you, id rather trade you for some random newbie in a wb.

go ask utopia or that shark guy tsomething, i cant remember his name or one of those other guys who wants to flag. i rarely see them jav in pub. if those guys try to play they get tked in the progress or find themself alone in the flagroom with the team roofing.

i can guarantee an increas in sharks now that there are people who actually try to get in when you repel. this will so increase gameplay, at least in the pub it is effective. the only problem is that you cant jav. but to be honest id rather jav less but better games anyway.

[za gophar]

well fluffz, you may be happy that there are no javs in purepub, but what about the people who do not purepub and now have to deal with the influx of javs who wanted to play in purepub but couldnt?

you are semi-correct about my habits, but look what i did--as soon as i found out that i could not jav in purepub yesterday, i went straight to pub 2 and javved there. there were clearly more javs than normal there. and that's reason #1 from my original post: this change throws off the balance in other pubs.

sure, my proposal is only second best to someone who never javs and only plays purepub, but how many people do that?? i think, at the very least, this should have been voted on before it was put in place. everyone seems to have a different justification for what they want. majority should rule.

why not have a poll: back to normal vs jav limit vs tk limit

[Fluffz]

there is no reason to vote on a tk limit, it simply should be implemented. no javs? 20% of pure pub players are still playing jav, considering that there are 8 ships that is too much, and i always said there should be an overall pub solution, like putting a bot into all of them. untill that happens i only play pub 0 and 1 because the others are not enjoyable once you know how to switch arenas and dont want to LT, and i am totaly not alone with that.

also, i do jav from time to time, its quite fun. but it is more fun if you can blow up 3 spiders/shot which untill today you couldnt.

polls will never show anything but the fact that jav is the most popular among the ships. id rather have the levi (with limits obviously) back than the unlimited javs. honestly.

[Hero*]

why not just limit the number of tks a person can do through use of a bot?
1 TK: warning
2 TKs: ship change
3 TKs: ban, or something similar

doesn't this make a bit more sense? theoretically, people can be reported after 1 tk, and if a mod sees them do it again, they are warned. if they do it yet another time, they are banned. therefore, 3 tks should be the ban limit. you have no reason to complain about a ban if you knew damn well that you would be banned after 3tks.

i like the idea of removing that rule in pub, everyone should get to play the ship they want in purepub because its the most fun (more action). however say if i tk a shark who sits in the middle of cram, how is that my fault that he doesnt move and then i get blamed for Tking. There needs to be a better/new system for warning/banning TKing javs. Also I would like to add to ban the sharks who mine everywhere in base because it is intentional. (above cram so when sharks rep it kill everyone near it). I agree with za gopher here.

[D1st0rt]

Strange, vaguely relevant metaphor:
A symptomatic approach is only effective if you actually enforce the treatment. If the dosage of the treatment is not high enough, you probably won't see any substantial results. Of course with a more aggressive approach, the side effects are also more noticeable.

Application:
As for stricter tk enforcement, (some) people will start to bitch about how the staff are all nazis and that they shouldn't have been banned (or whatever happened to them) over something so small and insignificant as tking.

Conclusion:
The point is, there is no way to completely satisfy everyone because there will always be someone who can find something they don't like in any given scenario. I'm not trying to say that tk punishment is a bad idea (I'm all for it), just that in general the administration will pursue the course of action they feel will be the most beneficial to the largest number of people (which may or may not include yourself). That being said (and I realize I am preaching to the choir here), reasonable and well articulated suggestions are more likely to be implemented from an overall perspective.

[Doc Flabby]

most ppl who die from jav tks are retarded..

If a jav shoots a bomb towards the enermy they move towards it and then cry when they get tked..

Occasionally someone purposly tks but staff normally deal with them faily quick...

The whole tking problem has been blown out of all proportion. Its just another move to restrict pub even more and turn it into ?go base

[Fluffz]

oh perfect. nevermind the fact that there are other ships that actually push, neverming the terr going up the entrance you bomb. you are why this change is so great.

there is no excuse for a tk, if you bomb a shark with reps he reps, obviously. if you miss a shot you were a tick off or a tick to fast. if you kill the nmy terr and 2 of your own you knew they would die. if you shoot random your terr might dodge something else and get killed by your slow and totaly useless bomb. if you are new and have no clue of this games physics at all you will miss the shot. its not that hard to get. the jav is the one being retarded

hell, i aint a good jav, once a week that i play, being rusty and all i switch myself every time i reacht 2 tks that aint sharks. and i never tk someone if i dont at least kill the nmy terr. and i easily play an hour like that, because once you try not to tk you wont.

[Richard Creager]

NO one is trying to turn pub0 into go base, that is 8s with bot picking, pub0 is a place with constatly variable player numbers and player chosen ships, ideally, free of massive jav numbers, devoid of leviathans piggy backing on terrs and chilling on the roof (do fucking note, javs also chill on the roof). They do the same damn thing in hosted basing maps, only the players who get to play jav are those who are picked to do it, the very unfortunate part is that most times they force everyone to be a spider, maybe have a picked wb and a few lancs. Who wants to play a hosted basing map even though you get the sick higher player numbers if you're going to be forced to use a spider the whole time? This is why I go to pub0, at least there I can fly a bird, unfortunately a lot of fucks only go to pub to jav, when the fuck are you EVER going to need an excess of yellow idiots with bomb camping fr all day and throwing radius all around the terrier? These people never move their line of position down, they do not actively fight, they sit there in their favorite spot and wait for the enemies to come to the flagroom entrance, after of course the enemies have managed to get past the few people who are playing their ships legitimately down in mid and most likely because of the reduced numbers the defense would have DUE to exactly how many of those bastards are sitting in the flagroom with a blueless radar making mid and tunnel a simple boostwalk. Yea, there are some people who actually use the ship the whole time (aka PUSH DOWN TO MID GOD DAMMIT) even in jav, but it is quite obvious that this just lets you know a)who has been using the ship to be confident enough to move out of the single holed cave everyone has to crawl out of if they die because the terr camps there b)which of these people who use the ship actually put the effort through try to use it, most often it are those who actively attack are the ones who never sit at one spot in fr and don't ever turn completely retarded the second someone like me comes in after a one spot minded hopelessly boring and predictable lob like those their other same ship using counterparts rely on exclusively, and it being directly due to these other jav's lack of offensive defense that I would have been able to get to and past the flagroom door so goddamn easily.

Again, the newbies in this ship are a plague in any map they are ever in, unless of course you're trying to get in, then they're actually quite a blessing, those who aren't on your team I mean, the ones on your team will most likely piss you off as soon as you have it and have to move down buuuut, the other frequency's guys often teamkill their guys, their terriers, they have horrible shots and don't know what to do if they actually have to turn their ship to hit anything (i.e. someone in the flagroom) and they're the ones who are mainly defending the place, they're easy! They make an easy flagroom! Again though, the only unfortunality is that your team has a bunch of the same minded guys, so you're in for teamkills and same-fr-shot catches and often nearby you or not without them lobbing a stray bomb before dying which will undoubtedly land somewhere and take the rest fo your energy away with the humongous radius that it'll spit at you.

Public, being the zone map is about the base, why not ensure that in at least one of these arenas that the goal of basing is followed through, and that the game of basing be taken and played at its best level? Base has a strict ship amount, and 1 at a time picking with "subs", not to mention is timed to 30 minutes,5-10 minute setup for a handfull of guys and I HAVE to play spider or shark? Booring, no, fuck go base forever. Hosted basing is the same thing spare the fact the low low teamlimit of 8s is taken off which is the only thing to make it at all a desireable game, however, people often ditch out of a hosted map when losing, other people can't get in because it is locked and the shit sucks, PLUS I have to play spider AGAIN? Can I get a fuck that? Now we come to the pub, sparing in mind the shipsettings were broken up a while ago and continue to plague the arena and base and most basing maps, though some use classic settings, complete with not gay bursts, random l1 damage, and the best part, 2x2 tiled cloakers and I think no bullet launch on them either, plus they moved slower, sparing rockets. In any case, two pubs feature levless arenas, which is definitely an improvement over year ago, of course this has led to tighter and more active basing what with the people being free to do so without having to spend minutes chasing a terrirer carrying a l3bomb wielding faggot, or having to chill in the goddamn spawn all day just to make sure none of them ever get to attach. Bring back levs? Bring back fuck no? I don't want to fucking have to chill in spawn all goddamn day again just to make sure some faggot who doesn't know what a real ship is stays there as well until they give up and leave. These two pubs in light of suddenly one day becoming real arenas UNLIKE their higher numbered brothers, still suffer from a number of problems: a)too many spectators, banner bots join their sysop asses to the arena at 36! b)the sizelimit is way too low, where the fuck are my 20s? c)too many newbie javs WHICH AT ONE POINT had been rectified for a while, but then retards complained and we're back to any rook ass getting to pick his favorite camping ship, when this is a goddamn basing arena, you need to be picking your favorite FIGHTING ship, you want to bomb lob? Go to bomb lob. Oh you only want it for the omg how many lucks can I fit into one radius game? Go to another pub where they allow levs. Oh no one plays there? Well it looks like no one wants to fuckign play with faggots like you around, now doesn't it? Hmm now why is it most people who play in pub0 don't like javs? Sure it must be because they're trying to turn it into go base right? Oh yeah timing the flag, that shit is totally go base, complete with having to wait to be picked in a spider on a team of shit and people you don't like or want to play with but YOU can't play witht he other guys, due to it being go base and all bot run and shit, you fucking idiot Doc Flabby stop protesting the first improvment to the zone in a long ass time with your senseless bullshit. You obviously cannot begin to understand the concept of the play of the game and the base and the HUGE differences that will always be between the DIFFERENT (CAPS FOR KEY WORD: DIFFERENT) arenas that play the variations of the game. These differences are the reason pub0 has the possibility to become that which something like go base will never be due to strict(sigh, bot picked, arena locked) 8's but also causes its own downfall in the event of basing due to the fact allowing camping javs, single tiled cloakers, and super 3 shot lancs, causes one or more to be played in excess over the other ships, and not played very well overall, but at least one of them neither has the ability to have their bomb repped back at you or fit through one tile holes, still, fuck the nubcaster.

Also, how many fucking times, god dammit, you piece of shit, if you don't like constructive structures in assistance to unlocked arena play, go to the other goddamn pub, whining about a restriction on jav number is pretty stupid when the only reason you care about the arena yourself is because most people play there due to leviathans being removed. You only play where the most people are for the big omg 4fer (including tks) you're a fuck and no different than the guys who would float past the roof dropping blue balls all day that have been kicked out of that arena, I don't see why the same shouldn't happen to you.

[Kolar]

...

Wow.


No one is trying to turn pure publics into ?go base. At the same time you also have to understand that Public gameplay is BASING, it isn't public basing or an open arena for people to piss around in: THE GAME is BASING.

There are a lot of problems right now for publics, I wish someone in higher staffer would recognize that and give the power to a Smod (And lets not have it turn into a stepping stone position.. again) or anyone to fix it and or look into it. At least with DoCk> some things were changed and updated (not for the better though), now we don't have anyone really with the access and the authority to do anything beyond make minor changes because he didn't really leave the zone. More then just minor map changes must occur if publics are going to be anything worth playing in the comming months and someone with some balls has to step up and do it without fear of taking the heat from the bottom of this zone.

[Richard Creager]

Wow.


No one is trying to turn pure publics into ?go base. At the same time you also have to understand that Public gameplay is BASING, it isn't public basing or an open arena for people to piss around in: THE GAME is BASING.

You obviously did not read any of my post because THIS IS WHAT I JUST EXPLAINED to Doc Flabby after his garbage ass post. P.S.-Please ban him from these forums because he is stupid shit and contributes nothing to them.

There are a lot of problems right now for publics, I wish someone in higher staffer would recognize that and give the power to a Smod (And lets not have it turn into a stepping stone position.. again) or anyone to fix it and or look into it. At least with DoCk> some things were changed and updated (not for the better though), now we don't have anyone really with the access and the authority to do anything beyond make minor changes because he didn't really leave the zone. More then just minor map changes must occur if publics are going to be anything worth playing in the comming months and someone with some balls has to step up and do it without fear of taking the heat from the bottom of this zone.

I'd talked with pure_luck about a map change and a few settings tweaks (besides changing to older settings) to make pub a newer game but still be basing, I'd even made a prototype for the map but haven't submitted it because it was made to completely obliterate being either anywhere outside the base to just no roof (WHO THE FUCK REALLY IS BASING IF THEY'RE ON THE ROOF??????????????????????????/?????), and too many fags love the roof and since a small number of people like it staff will never make a change like that. So I decided I'll just sit on the map, and the settings changes and just work on trying to get the current incarnation of the basing idea to be executed at its fullest playing potential within our extremely limited ability to do so (no shipchanges since they're not "outside the box" enough for CERTAIN people). Keeping jav numbers low is the current necessity for this and is absolutely imerative to have at this point. I would never worry about "heat" from the random newbies in this zone who do not matter or even know what basing is or could be, and them trying to press a backwards decision on an arena they do not belong in in the first place. This is the problem with submitting anything to you guys, the staff who will never bring such possibilities into effect because you're scared dock will axe you all for trying to make the zone more fun, even though reversing any of the changes would be simple and harmless. But whatever, you're the guys who tremble shake and fear even at a few pitiful and baseless whines from a few measely players about the first good thing you've done in a long damn time for the goddamn pub, so much that you even caved in to the bullshit! Its so fucking ridiculous, first changing the ships is taboo, now whiners change their story so that limiting a shitty one is taboo as well. I can't help but think of how funny it is when Dock actually is online and around you all, given your inherent bootlicking and spineless nature as a whole, and in light of going back on a simple bot enabled change in a TESTING arena due to a few whines from idiots showing how weak and submissive you are to all the wrong things.