Distension Beta Suggestions/Bugfix thread

[hak]

Distension Beta

What I've been generally hearing is: "there's too much text to read; can it be cut down?" It's certainly much easier to avoid LVZ for some aspects of the game, the kills in particular. If it's not considered too big a deal we can try keeping that sort of stuff as text-only. Where I want LVZ in is where a graphical display can prevent confusion and make play more intuitive -- the progress bar is a good example, so that people don't have to type !progress regularly. Another is the rearmament display so that people understand why they have not yet been prized, and the rank up display in case the level-up text is missed. I would still like to see a current rank display near the upgrades as well. Other than that, I'm not looking for a great deal more. Appropriate sounds/music may be in order for special situations, though. I'll have to break out Reason and the old Axiom25 MIDI controller in the next couple of weeks.

So what you're trying to say is that you won't be adding more new lvz, just replacing a lot of lines of text with some lvz? If so, this would seem fine to me. I just don't need any confusing sort of lvz, but if it gets rid of the text, go for it. (Even though the text-stream isn't that much per subject in my opinion, it's just that it spits out lines of text so often)
In short:

• Good: Lvz to replace lines of spam
• Bad: Random Lvz and sound effects like explosions confusing us.

But I think/hope this is what you meant?

[/font]Can't figure out the problem people are having with the progress bar yet. It seems to work for me just fine. Fixed the problem with it not turning off, though.

Having no problems at all with the progress bar, haven't heard any complaints eversince either. Must be all good now.

There is still a bug with !assist where it'll cause a player to be thrown back and forth between armies. If this happens to you, try doing !team and !terr to see if you're able to get any information. I added a special case for !team specifically to try to catch the problem. Anyone who provides information leading to the fixing of this bug will receive the usual RP bonus at public release, as well as a beta bonus of 100 RP per rank in the ship of your choice. (That is to say, use !assist as often as you can!)

I think I might have mistaken with the ID error. I've !defected and !enlisted just a few sessions ago, maybe the !team was between those times? I'm 100% sure I got that "You are not enlisted with an army, you do not have an ID"-something message, just not entirely sure when I got it. You made me doubt. :unsure: I'll be looking out to use !assist as often as I can whenever you start up the bot again.

Also, did you get the auto-shutdown to work? This could be a very useful feature, allowing the game to play when you have to go. Good luck on it.

Regards,

Hakkinen B)

[gdugwyler]

Progress bar should be fixed.

There is still a bug with !assist where it'll cause a player to be thrown back and forth between armies. If this happens to you, try doing !team and !terr to see if you're able to get any information. I added a special case for !team specifically to try to catch the problem. Anyone who provides information leading to the fixing of this bug will receive the usual RP bonus at public release, as well as a beta bonus of 100 RP per rank in the ship of your choice. (That is to say, use !assist as often as you can!)

[gdugwyler]

Maybe you need to cut down a bit on the lvz? The arena can still make use of some lvz sound or graphic effects, but I'm afraid too much lvz will leave people confused of what's going on.

What I've been generally hearing is: "there's too much text to read; can it be cut down?" It's certainly much easier to avoid LVZ for some aspects of the game, the kills in particular. If it's not considered too big a deal we can try keeping that sort of stuff as text-only. Where I want LVZ in is where a graphical display can prevent confusion and make play more intuitive -- the progress bar is a good example, so that people don't have to type !progress regularly. Another is the rearmament display so that people understand why they have not yet been prized, and the rank up display in case the level-up text is missed. I would still like to see a current rank display near the upgrades as well. Other than that, I'm not looking for a great deal more. Appropriate sounds/music may be in order for special situations, though. I'll have to break out Reason and the old Axiom25 MIDI controller in the next couple of weeks.

Also: is the progress bar working or not? It seems to work pretty fine for me, but I've been hearing a lot of complaints about it. And it doesn't seem to shut off after the bot is killed. Just so you know.

Can't figure out the problem people are having with the progress bar yet. It seems to work for me just fine. Fixed the problem with it not turning off, though.

[hak]

Distension Beta

The beta RP multiplier will continue to rise, and I may start to leave the bot on for several hours a day, particularly when I'm gone at work. To be honest it's been taking over my life lately, and I'd like to get it public fairly soon here.

I could keep an eye on the bot if you want, I seem to on a lot lately anyway, with nothing to do. Just for making sure it doesn't crash, and if it does, reboot it. Log possible errors, and so on.

Will be focusing more on balancing ships, and extra non-criticals such as LVZ and sound in the days to come. If you'd like to help with LVZ or have a way to record decent sounds/music, drop me a line.

Maybe you need to cut down a bit on the lvz? The arena can still make use of some lvz sound or graphic effects, but I'm afraid too much lvz will leave people confused of what's going on.
Also: is the progress bar working or not? It seems to work pretty fine for me, but I've been hearing a lot of complaints about it. And it doesn't seem to shut off after the bot is killed. Just so you know.

As always, good luck. Regards,

Hakkinen B)

[gdugwyler]

Hot new updates

There have been quite a few updates since the last post, but the big one is:

- Lancaster has been added. All ships are now in. Lanc unlocks at rank 10 in beta; this means you'll need to rank up any ship to 10 or more to unlock it. In public release the unlock mechanism will be different.

Also,

- Cutoff for "high" rate of increase to "low" rate of increase reduced from level 10 to level 9. This may not seem like much, but the difference may be something on the order of 400-500 points on the very first level it affects (level 10). This will also mean 400-500(+15%) less points required for every level after, meaning a pretty significant drop in RP required for those difficult teen years. Hopefully this will keep the good times rolling a little bit longer. A mirror change with this one will be a slight increase of points required for high ranks (probably for 50 onward) to compensate. Note that rank 50 is meant to equal roughly "TW stock +150%" -- that's how the game has been designed at any rate. After this level most ships are generally considered maxed in terms of standard upgrades. All that usually will remain will be a few special abilities, particularly some ridiculous "trophy" abilities such as Jav L3 bombs.

- The assist system should be getting close to decent. This is a significant hurdle that we have to cross over if the game is to succeed in its present form. Let me know if you think it still needs tweaking.

- The beta RP multiplier will continue to rise, and I may start to leave the bot on for several hours a day, particularly when I'm gone at work. To be honest it's been taking over my life lately, and I'd like to get it public fairly soon here. Will be focusing more on balancing ships, and extra non-criticals such as LVZ and sound in the days to come. If you'd like to help with LVZ or have a way to record decent sounds/music, drop me a line. Also, still taking a look at a variety of tilesets, though I have some problems with ones without much color or flavor ... if you have anything original in that department (rendered in 3D, maybe?) I would be interested to see.

[gdugwyler]

U(n)=U(n-1)*1.3 is a formula you can use for any level.

The only problem I found with a small increment on the initial levels is that it's actually sometimes theoretically easier to level on later ranks, due to the way the points are given out. Starting with 1.65 seems to jack it up nicely at the beginning, and then the 1.15 levels it off after 10, while still providing a good challenge. But it will I'm sure need tweaking as we go.

Re: terr regeneration, it was reduced to 5% per upgrade with a max of 50%. Hopefully this will work well enough. Getting a full 50% is pretty high up in the levels for terrs, and this makes sense considering they'll be struggling to get away from thors, L2 jav bombs, shrapnel, multifire from most ships, etc.

Sharks have only L1 bullets (this means 520 damage; dmg can't be adjusted per-ship unfortunately). This will only result in one-hit kills for the very low levels or those who are simply low on energy. Again, essentially a can of mace -- it's probably not going to kill the person trying to attack you, but it will perhaps make them think twice about rushing you. This will also give a shark something to be able to fire while moving in reverse, normally a very weak position for it. However, the bullet is still quite slow and might have its velocity reduced to almost nothing if moving too quickly in reverse ...

Also, you mentioned sharks EMPing and then firing this bullet -- a somewhat unfortunate key difference in this game is that sharks do not have EMP. This was done so that EMP can be given a different damage level (about 30% of normal dmg) and the levi can be made into a basing ship while still retaining fast bombing capability. Sharks being given guns is a way to return to them a bit of that lost power. (They also have the option for multifire, as does every other ship.) They also have a somewhat unexpected ability awaiting them in the later levels...

[hak]

Distension

One tweak we could make is making the switch from the 1.65 multiplier to the 1.15 multiplier one level earlier. This would make it a good bit easier in the teens. Then maybe in level 25+ (where ships are roughly equivalent to TW standards) we could increase the multiplier to 1.2 or so, and maybe 1.3 for level 40 and beyond. Does this sound decent? Worth a shot, at any rate. I agree that it would be nice if the ranks didn't slow down so much until a bit higher, when people are a little more invested in a ship and have had a chance to see basically what it's about. What do you guys think?

I'm pretty sure a recursive formule as U(n)=U(n-1)*1.3 is a formula you can use for any level. It seems pretty logical to have to get the same 'experience' as the level before, and a bit more. I think most rpgs use 1.3 or 1.25 for a required-experience/level rate.

When it comes to leveling, in my opinion this shouldn't have to be superfast. It's good to take things easy, think about your upgrades and get used to you ship more before it gets too good. If there's one way to ruin a game, a role-playing game in particular, it's to rush through it.


Also: I think the terrier burst and portal system might be a bit enthusiastic. By using just 13 of your points, four bursts and portals can be collected on your terrier (correct me if I'm wrong, I thought I saw this last night), and you can make sure you have a 100% chance on getting a burst and portal every thirty seconds. This would be more proper being at about 5% per level, 50% max? Or you could use a recursive formula to give lower added percentages for higher upgrades. Like: 10%, 9%, 8%, 7% etc. This may all be over the top though, you could keep it simple by just reducing the percentages.

And another one: I think the spiders are have a really good setup right now, you shouldn't tweak them much anymore. They're a bit weak early, but get strong fast with the right upgrades. They seem to be key to getting a flagroom captured, which is key. It's good to see how spiders are still one of the most clutch basing ships. Keep up the good things.

Shark: I read bullets have been added to a shark's armory. What kind of bullets will these be? "They cost a lot of energy", so they will probably be one hit killers? I think a shark should just have bullets that do around 200 damage, and cost about 800. This, so they can bullet only the people they emped. Shark might be overpowered with good bullets, bombs, repels and mines.

Anyhow, it's good to see so many people interested in a new sub-game. Keep it up people.

Regards,

Hakkinen B)

[gdugwyler]

N + 1/2N = M M + 1/2M = L

i think this will keep the levelling faster for the first 20 ranks and then it will get hard

This is definitely getting into good territory now. After your post I started a reply to explain the formula, but then double-checked and re-checked it thinking there may have been an error. I'm certain it's calculated properly now, but that doesn't mean it's perfect by any means, and if it's becoming too large it may need tweaking.

---

The formula is pretty simple, but fortunately not just a starting value plus 2 to the N, where N is the rank. I considered that, but of course it gets out of hand very, very quickly as you say.

It's presently done as a recursive calculation. Each ship has a starting value for rank 1 increase, 16 being about average. So for example it could take 16 to get to rank 1, and then 16 * a constant for ranks under 10 (I think about ~1.65) to get to the next level. "To get to the next level" is the key phrase, because that means you'll need ~26 more to get to the next level, or total 38, rather than just a total of 26 (which would mean rank 2 would actually be easier to attain than rank 1, requiring only 10RP). You probably see at this point why it must be calculated with recursion.

The initial constant of 1.65 is used until about level 10, when it starts to mellow out to a growth rate of about 1.15, so that to get to the next level you need to earn only slightly more than you did to get to the last one. This ensures it's slightly more difficult while not getting completely out of hand.

Today I did a test using spider and calculated RP needed for the first 16 levels. RP needed is the amount needed in addition to the amount already attained to get to the next level. Total is the total number, and isn't all that relevant. Kills is the number of kills required of a player of the same rank to reach the next level.

RP needed   Total     Kills
---------   -----     -----
16          (16)        16
25          (41)        25
40          (81)        20
64          (145)       21
102         (247)       26           -- rank 5
163         (410)       32
260         (670)       43
416         (1086)      59
665         (1751)      83
1064        (2815)     118           -- rank 10
1702        (4517)     170           (after this, next is ~x1.15 of last)
1957        (6274)     179
2250        (8724)     187
2587        (11311)    199
2975        (14286)    212           -- rank 15
3421        (17707)    228

These numbers don't seem too bad when you have players of relatively equal level. If you think about pub and how long it takes to rack up a couple hundred kills, you're not looking at more than an hour or two for each level once you're rank 11+, which is about right.

One tweak we could make is making the switch from the 1.65 multiplier to the 1.15 multiplier one level earlier. This would make it a good bit easier in the teens. Then maybe in level 25+ (where ships are roughly equivalent to TW standards) we could increase the multiplier to 1.2 or so, and maybe 1.3 for level 40 and beyond. Does this sound decent? Worth a shot, at any rate. I agree that it would be nice if the ranks didn't slow down so much until a bit higher, when people are a little more invested in a ship and have had a chance to see basically what it's about. What do you guys think?

So, in any case, thanks inaphyt for encouraging another look at the formula, even if it was initially not directed productively. You're right that there may definitely be room for improvement here.

[hak]

Distention Beta Test

Greetings.

In about two to three hours from now, there will be another testing session of Distension. This is around 10:00-11:00 EST and around 15:00-16:00 GMT.

Be sure to be in the chat distension, or #distension around those times to make sure you don't miss your chance to help testing.

See you then, enjoy your testing session!

Regards,

Hakkinen B)

[inaphyt]

The streak system works by counting the number of successive kills you've made, but only of those within 5 levels of yours. It was done this way because the streak reward given is based on the player's rank and not the rank of the victims.


This is a much more provocative argument. The warbird is one of the sparsest ships in terms of what can be upgraded, even if its upgrade speed is about average. It still does get some interesting and unique abilities, however -- and its L2 bullets should give it the ability to 1-hit kill well into the mid levels, where it can either start firing two shots in fairly rapid succession or just upgrade to L3. Its 1-hit kill power will start to become more obvious at that time, when L1 bullets become worth less and less as energy and recharge are upgraded more across the board. As that happens, WB 1-hit kill shots shots will still work, retaining the same power, which in essence will make it more powerful as more ships rank into higher levels. Spider, on the other hand, is stuck with L1 guns until pretty late in its life.

As for the speed that it upgrades, though? Consider this: even with a x1.5 bonus for beta, you're still only earning something more than about half of what a WB would normally earn at this level, because you're largely killing lowbies. So your advancement speed is much slower as well. If we make your levelling speed just as fast as an average WB when you're 5 levels above everyone else and have much less risk of dying, then we must effectively almost double the speed at which an average WB levels up! And I'm not ready to do this just to help some frontrunners who have no equal competitors have an easier time staying ahead of everyone else.

But: what we're talking about is a very isolated situation that really won't be occurring past the first few months of the public release, after which time there should be enough variation in levels for the frontrunner problem to be negligible.

I think what you suggest is best -- if people that get tired of their ship not levelling very quickly because it's levels above most others, they should ?go. Then when they come back in a couple of days, it should be almost twice as easy to level up, as by then people have caught up. Fixes itself, and as a friend of mine once said in a moment of brilliance, solution solved.

Well it's your project but.

all i'm saying is maybe create a new way of levelling.

i think as of current you using this method. 32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048-4096-8192-16384

as you can see this get ridiculous very fast i think it works like that anyway.... i don't think it matters how much rp you need from specific other level ships typing !progress after you been playing for so long is just depressing.

All i'm suggesting is that you do it a different way maybe using this formula.

N + 1/2N = M M + 1/2M = L

i think this will keep the levelling faster for the first 20 ranks and then it will get hard

[gdugwyler]

In an effort to make the support ships more playable, I've made a couple of changes to them away from total defense:

- Terr gun speed increased by about 75%.
- Terrs now have the ability that gives them a small chance to be prized burst or portal every 30 seconds. (The frequency and/or % chance may need to be adjusted.)
- Shark gunning capability available at level 12. Shark guns cost quite a bit to fire and are the slowest in the game, but provide an emergency defense that may prove useful. Think of it as a can of mace more than anything.

Assault ships:
- Levi bomb damage increased to near the level it started at (does 30% of normal bomb damage).
- Levi EMP reduced to max 6 seconds on full contact.
- Spider firing frequency reduced by 5ms.
- Spider upgrade speed reduced slightly.
- Spiders will now have a larger array of special abilities than originally planned. In particular a short super will be available for prizing every 30 seconds in the later levels.
- Weasel upgrade speed increased slightly.


Due to the changes, assault ships will also now enjoy a slightly larger cut of the end-round winnings (35% v 65%).

[gdugwyler]

The streak system works by counting the number of successive kills you've made, but only of those within 5 levels of yours. It was done this way because the streak reward given is based on the player's rank and not the rank of the victims.

I just don't see someone that plays wb using any of the other 7 ships i also see a player that only uses wb get bored of the slow un developing wb and type ?go.

This is a much more provocative argument. The warbird is one of the sparsest ships in terms of what can be upgraded, even if its upgrade speed is about average. It still does get some interesting and unique abilities, however -- and its L2 bullets should give it the ability to 1-hit kill well into the mid levels, where it can either start firing two shots in fairly rapid succession or just upgrade to L3. Its 1-hit kill power will start to become more obvious at that time, when L1 bullets become worth less and less as energy and recharge are upgraded more across the board. As that happens, WB 1-hit kill shots shots will still work, retaining the same power, which in essence will make it more powerful as more ships rank into higher levels. Spider, on the other hand, is stuck with L1 guns until pretty late in its life.

As for the speed that it upgrades, though? Consider this: even with a x1.5 bonus for beta, you're still only earning something more than about half of what a WB would normally earn at this level, because you're largely killing lowbies. So your advancement speed is much slower as well. If we make your levelling speed just as fast as an average WB when you're 5 levels above everyone else and have much less risk of dying, then we must effectively almost double the speed at which an average WB levels up! And I'm not ready to do this just to help some frontrunners who have no equal competitors have an easier time staying ahead of everyone else.

But: what we're talking about is a very isolated situation that really won't be occurring past the first few months of the public release, after which time there should be enough variation in levels for the frontrunner problem to be negligible.

I think what you suggest is best -- if people that get tired of their ship not levelling very quickly because it's levels above most others, they should ?go. Then when they come back in a couple of days, it should be almost twice as easy to level up, as by then people have caught up. Fixes itself, and as a friend of mine once said in a moment of brilliance, solution solved.

[inaphyt]

I just don't see someone that plays wb using any of the other 7 ships i also see a player that only uses wb get bored of the slow un developing wb and type ?go.

That's just me

[Turban]

I like the current ship settings, to be honest. The leveling speed is just perfect (even without the 50% RP bonus) and should stay the way it is. Seriously, what is the point of fast leveling up (from 1 to 40) within 2 weeks? You need to do alot of work for those levels instead of just lvling up every hour or so.

QUESTION #1: How does the streak system work? Do you need 10 kills to start a streak (killing players at about your level) or something similiar to that?

[gdugwyler]

I strongly resent the implication that I'm making this decision on a whim, just to flex a figurative muscle. I provided what I believe was a valid pair of reasons for going this route, and you responded by insulting me rather than providing a counter-argument. Clearly it's implicit in the situation that there are fewer players of a higher rank; that's exactly the meat of what we're discussing! I'm sorry to demean you in this manner, but did you even read the post?