Distension discussion

[DankNuggets]

Bursts already seem to last too long. They come from unexpected directions, they cannot be tanked, if you can dodge them they may still get you on another rebound, repping can make them worse and half the time they are friendlies anyway. I personally prefer to be killed by someones plan even if it was something strayed at a clump of dots on a radar. Being killed by bouncing into some slow shrap or a burst fired in some combat that was over seconds ago is very annoying.

I too hate bursts with a passion. I always die to them unexpectedly and mine always get repped into someone that ends up eating them. I haven't seen the lanc burst yet in pub release, but remember how ungodly it was in the beta. Somehow, I'm not convinced that both terr and lanc bursts have to be the same duration, but I'm not positive about it. They certainly don't have to have the same speed, trajectory, or number of bursts. Only thing that seems to be the same is the energy they take from you (enough for one hit KO) and maybe duration.

If it has to mess with the terrier's burst duration, then maybe they could be sped up instead.

Looking at the top 10 it is easy to see that terriers are already overpowered. Anything that helps them kill more will make it worse as well as make terrier RP less dependent on supporting their team. This overpowered leveling is perhaps justified by their value to a basing team but that value will be reduced if terriers are dying more to each others bursts and care less about winning.

You may argue that it is only a small change but it is like taking a little weight off the lighter side of tipped scales and moving it to the heavier.

terrs need all the help they can get, that is unless they are already top ranked ships. personally, i can't tank shots, and having to dodge 3 wbs constanly hunting me is a pain in the ass. We need as many people with decently ranked terrs as possible, but I see the danger of making them too powerful. A few extra seconds of burst would be very bad... I guess we just have to see how closely lanc/terr bursts are related.

I would much rather deal with leeching. It is predictable and its effects can be countered by dodging, repping, tanking, 1-shot killing or indirect fire.

i don't know that i'd say predictable, it's a random chance of getting it, is it not? (well maybe not random, but not 100%)

If lancs have been overpowered at least they are rare and require considerable skill, luck or a high level ship to acquire. A slight overpowering in order to catch up with the levels of other ships after unlocking seems justified too.

they might require all that stuff to unlock, but they certainly do not require all that to dominate ppl. It is 'better' than the other ships IMO. It's not about catching up either... look at the people who have unlocked it... they aren't "behind" anybody.

Despite supposedly being flown by more lucky or skillful pilots and being rare enough to avoid swarm/pall penalties the Top 10 does not show lancs to be significantly ahead of their warbird rivals. The top spiders seem slightly weaker but will perhaps catch up when they get L2s and can kill powerful ships more easily. Clearly lancs are not much overpowered at the moment and should suffer no overall nerf unless they start exceeding their Top 10 rivals at high level.

do you have lanc? Sounds like it. Ofc wbs and terrs will be higher... people start with them. You wouldn't expect lancs, which require a significant investment in time to acquire, to be anywhere near the top 10 if it was indeed balanced. In fact, they should be the LOWEST ship, since they are played the least, and are unlocked last. The people who are higher in WB play it 100% of the time. People who play lanc can in no way play 100% of time since they had to play other ships to unlock it (though they will probably try after unlocking it).

If the few people who do have lanc have seemingly no trouble ranking up and dominating the opposition, it is indeed very overpowered.

Leeching may help lancs to chew through strings of weaker ships but even 100% leech won't do much for them one on one against a strong ship. Having a maximum of 60% leeching (until very high level) seems about the right amount for a lanc to be able to gamble favourably on getting a full charge without being able to rely on one. This makes for more interesting tactics and shipbuild options. I see no good reason to nerf it yet.

that's over half the time getting a fc. right now i see them shoot 3 multifire shots in a row without recharging. That's going to equate to 6 shots with leech, maybe even 9 or 12 everynow and then. It's not something that happens every so often like spider super, it happens every other kill at that point.

Now I have been reminded what a spider can do with L2 bullets I think that lancs will need all the help they can get to match their killing rate at higher levels. Without any changes the age of lanc dominance is already on its way out before it ever really started.
Well I hope... :P

If they get 120 kills in a game, they should get 72 FC's from it. I don't think the energy tank comes anywhere close to that, though i'm sure super+lvl 2+ multifire will bring some complaining when it comes.

I don't think we've begun to see the age of lanc dominace yet... there simply aren't enough of them around. However, if we don't nerf them, it will arise soon enough.

[Viruk]

look at the people who have unlocked it... they aren't "behind" anybody.

They are behind the top 10 terriers in levels.

do you have lanc? Sounds like it.

Not yet. Hopefully soon. Don't expect me to play it exclusively.

You wouldn't expect lancs, which require a significant investment in time to acquire, to be anywhere near the top 10 if it was indeed balanced.

Yes I do. The game has multiple objectives and different roles for ships. Is not having similar levels as good an indicator of balance as anything else? Why should you suffer a long term disadvantage just because your favorite ship is harder to unlock?

If the few people who do have lanc have seemingly no trouble ranking up and dominating the opposition, it is indeed very overpowered.

I disagree that lancs have been dominating. They certainly do not dominate numerically. They do not dominate team play like the essential support ships. They do not dominate versus most equally high level ships in equal combat.

that's over half the time getting a fc. right now i see them shoot 3 multifire shots in a row without recharging.

But their full charges are not going to be of use all of the time. If they rely on them to survive they will soon die even when they are able to make their kills successfully. If they do not rely on them they will be too busy dodging to benefit from them much of the time. A full charge is not much use unless it lets you damage, kill or survive when your recharge wouldn't be enough.

My spider can shoot 2 L2 multifires in a row without recharging. It is much more efficient to use single fire though. Possibly I could then energy tank and shoot another 2 multis without having to kill anything. Every now and then I get a super that may let me shoot off a dozen. I expect high level warbirds to be able to shoot a lot too even though their abilities are more useful for survival.

If they get 120 kills in a game, they should get 72 FC's from it. I don't think the energy tank comes anywhere close to that

Energy tank regeneration is slow but every FC I get from energy tanks can happen when I need it most.

[Peace_Maker]

My terr is maxed out on abilities pretty much. I have max thrust and max regen. My speed is already faster than I like for the thrust I have, only reason I do not scrap speed is for the ball game. Things I can upgrade (most useful first):

energy if I change to warship (only way to tank L3 bullets)
2 more upgrades of profit sharing 10 ranks from now
multifire bullets
2 more upgrades of escape pod maxing out at 50% chance
improved summoning (why when I can already summon)
targeted emp (useless in my opinion since it only comes every 20 mins)

Other than those small changes I am about as strong as a terr can get. Granted I run around aimlessly wasting energy sometimes but in a flag battle it is still possible to kill me even if ships are 10-15 ranks below me. I don't think the terr is overpowered since it does not get much stronger than what I have unless specializing in warship which decreases extras by half. Half of the specials I have now or 500 more energy...I am going to have to wait, I kill more this way.

[Viruk]

Team imbalance ideas

We are still regularly having problems with unbalanced teams.

Army shuffling doesn't always help fix problems with imbalanced teams for a particular session or timeslot. Sometimes it makes them worse.

Players opinion is often divided with some enjoying the challenge of an uphill struggle and others that whine or call for shuffles every time the teams get slightly imbalanced for a game. Some are suspicious of shuffling decisions being made by player referees. Nobody enjoys being on a losing team for days.

A shuffling algorithm that uses activity, playing times and balance of essential support ships would help but even if teams are shuffled very frequently (confusing for newbies and giving little chance to develop teamwork) there will still be a lot of unbalanced teams. Better to have a good automated shuffle running once a week if there is enough army imbalance detected.

The assist system should correct most imbalances but many are still reluctant to assist a losing team because they will get more kills on a dominant team or they are not aware of saint bonus. Often victory or defeat hangs on an imbalance or lack of essential support ships and non-essential assisting doesn't help much.

I suggest introducing a subversion system that would enable losing teams to do something about an unbalanced team if they are willing to pay the cost:

Allow a team that lost the previous battle to subvert a player from the other team when the other team are winning (have a sector hold).
A group of players would have to agree to share an RP cost. The target player would then be subverted which would work like a forced assist for the duration of the battle.
If a team has lost a string of battles they might be allowed extra subversions and/or lower subversion costs.

Subverted players would get a subversion bonus similar to the basic assist bonus and would not be allowed to revert to their team unless they paid an RP cost (always bigger than their subversion bonus). The bot would never return subverted players to their team to correct an imbalance.

After the end of the battle the subverted players would become normal assisting players and would be allowed to switch if normal assist balance rules allow it. Perhaps both subverting and subverted players should also get a subvert bonus similar to holds/breaks if the team wins or stalemates.

Those players that pay to revert to their team would be immune to further subversions for a long period to prevent harrassment. The players that subverted them would get their RP back (and perhaps still get a bonus for committing to a successful subversion if their team doesn't lose the battle). The reversion cost should be based on their level but less than the total subversion cost since it will never be shared between players. Players previously subverted a short while ago could cost more or be immune to prevent harrassment.

Terriers and sharks would be immune to subversion if their team did not have more than one per flag. Essential support ships would cost more to subvert. Subversion would be allowed to create a team imbalance (as the bot sees it) but perhaps this might cost more.

The subversion cost would be dependent on the target's level and perhaps rank (or make fleet/flag/officers cost more to subvert.)
The amount a player can spend on subversion would be limited and depend on level and possibly rank (or fleet/flag/officer status). This would make it difficult for lower level (and less experienced) players to subvert much higher level (more experienced) players unless a lot of them agreed to it.
Subversion costs would be shared proportionally according to that limit. (Possibly making it so more experienced players bear a greater share of both power and responsibility.)

There could be a minimum number of players required to agree to a subversion and perhaps the player who nominates the subverted player would have to be an officer or one of the highest ranking players on the team. This would help prevent the team's limited subversion opportunities being wasted by inexperienced players or single players who want to play with their mates more than help the team. Perhaps there could be Tac Ops veto costing 1 OP and perhaps a highest ranking veto as well.

It could work by the nominating player pming '!subvert playername' to confirm the shared cost where it is possible to subvert the player. '!sv playername yes' would give a team message telling players that it would cost xRP shared between at least x players to subvert playername and they should pm !sv to the bot in the next x seconds if they want to contribute.

===>> To reduce assist/subvert/shuffle confusion it would be good if the message at the start of the ballgame was a team message showing which way to go to score goals. <<===

[getting pwned]

While that sounds good in theory, once teams are shuffled, and before the start of a battle, people assist. Usually its the stronger players assisting a better army. The people in the game have gotten RP hungry and will do anything they can to level.

A few people last night kept saying that the bot should auto put players on a team, and the assist command be taken away. Basically, if you're not happy with the team you're on, you can either sit in spec, or just stfu about it and play. RP is RP reguardless of how much you get.

I also think there should be a cap on certain ships. Levs, and javs are everywhere. I'm not talking about me seeing as I play my lev like theres no tomorrow, but levs and javs emp and tk their own team almost as much, if not MORE than the enemy. [I believe in bullets over bombs, and will only emp if no team mates are around.]

The game as a whole has gotten way out of hand, and I've seen and heard a few people say that they're getting bored with it, and threaten to stop playing.

Go ahead and call me a retard but thats just my $0.02.

[Lizard Fuel]

Was the support bonus drastically reduced for just the levi, or every "support" ship? I've had horrible luck the past week as I've been on the losing team about 95% of the time, and it has taken me more than 10 days now, to earn just 25% of my next level. Also keep in mind, I am usually the kill leader, or very close to, every single round I play, and still finding it brutally boring. Maybe I'm just bored with levi, i dunno.

I just find it discouraging to get more RP from 1 goal between rounds, than I do from losing 8 rounds in a row in a single session. Especially as a "support" ship with brutally high leveling standards. ( I need more for rank 48 than lanc does for level 51 [and a blind retard with turrets syndrome can fly a lanc successfully, as trunk has proven] )

Also, I would agree to limiting any ships with bombs per team. It would be so much more intense in the FR if we replaced the 5 levis and 5 javs with 3 spiders, a shark and another camping warbird.

Edit: viruk, do you have to post a 5000 word essay every single time you post. Jesus Christ.

[getting pwned]

( I need more for rank 48 than lanc does for level 51 [and a blind retard with turrets syndrome can fly a lanc successfully, as trunk has proven] )

Hahahahah I fucking love you Liz. [In a total non loving way]

[DankNuggets]

the subversion idea sounds like it would be better as a tac OPS ability. If it requires coordination within a team, it's not going to be used a lot correctly. People are too busy playing to be bothered with it i think, so allowing the one player in spec to do it might be better. Plus, there are only a few tac ops, so you wouldn't have to worry about a lot of people disagreeing on who to pick, it would just be one person's decision.

If that goes through, you should be able to turn off subversion, just like you can turn off summoning.

At this point shufflewise I couldn't care less about what team i'm on (Intergalactic vs. People's). In the beta, you were stuck on a team, and it was fun to build comradary and know you belonged to a team. Now, I don't even know what team I'm on until the ball game starts and I'm forced to look. So I'd be happy with the game autoshuffling to balance teams after each round, game, or hosting.

Loyalty is completely out the window now, and I'd rather see the game become equitable.

[Viruk]

the subversion idea sounds like it would be better as a tac OPS ability.

It would but balance is something needed early on after a reset and by teams without a Tac Ops.

If it requires coordination within a team, it's not going to be used a lot correctly

The Tac Ops and senior rank veto would help but if a team is totally uncoordinated and unwilling to do anything about it as well as imbalanced they probably deserve to lose.

. People are too busy playing to be bothered with it i think,

People do not seem too busy to complain about imbalance. This would give them a chance to spend their time and RP to correct it instead.

If that goes through, you should be able to turn off subversion, just like you can turn off summoning.

It costs the subverters RP and most likely costs the subverted player an easy victory so you cannot make it free to evade or too many would turn it off. It would be powerful and annoying but also very limited and sometimes fun.

[roxxkatt]

heres the story:

all this is unnecessary.
someone had an idea that was simple and elegant...
simply take the highest level terrs, and alternate between teams in descending order


all bursts must exist for the same amount of time, all ships.
the lanc firebloom got nerfed when qan changed that time.
it is currently useless. noone has it.
lanc leech is already getting a huge nerf, because it is INDISPUTABLY overpowered.
id personally like it to be set to 5%, but its going to be tried at 10%.
if burst time was increased, terr bursts would naturally be more annoying.
thus: id like to see terr bursts become considerably slower, as most ships in distension have the same handling as a yacht.


also, it would be cool to have an ops ability to 'steal' people, but it would have to be expensive (10-15)
1 OP is rediculously cheap. for anything.


terrs currently take 80% as long as other ships to lvl, recieve 10% of all rp made by any player, and have guns and bursts.
something has to be done.

[jngy slate]

I Want The Bursts To Be Just Like The Terr Bursts In Every Other Part Of Tw. Take Out The L2s And Multi. Im Sick Of Terrs Like Raible Going Around Trying To Get Killing Streaks Instead Of Helping Their Team.

[Peace_Maker]

Leave terr how it is. When you guys finally get into the 50s you are going to destroy terrs because you do not have all of the abilities afforded to you when terrs already do and are not going to improve.

[Viruk]

all this is unnecessary.
someone had an idea that was simple and elegant...
simply take the highest level terrs, and alternate between teams in descending order

Too simple and quite ugly. We need shark balance too. Would need to be done every battle as well which has its disadvantages.

lanc leech is already getting a huge nerf, because it is INDISPUTABLY overpowered.

I have already DISPUTED it. At length.
(And would be happy to do so again on some other thread where it won't annoy people, in letters as big and as colorful and as uppercase as it takes to get your attention.)

if burst time was increased, terr bursts would naturally be more annoying.
thus: id like to see terr bursts become considerably slower, as most ships in
distension have the same handling as a yacht.

Would be nice to be able to dodge them more easily but they would still cause lots of random death if around for a long time. I would not want to see them become useless as an aimed defensive weapon either. Terrier bursts are far more important to get right than fireblooms.

also, it would be cool to have an ops ability to 'steal' people, but it would have to be expensive (10-15)
1 OP is rediculously cheap. for anything.

I was proposing a 1 OP veto to stop your own team 'stealing' the wrong person. This should not cost much.
Being able to subvert people merely by spending a large chunk of OP seems overpowered without lots of other limits.

[Lizard Fuel]

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[Viruk]

If a weasel brick lasts longer than the total duration of all the reps on a level 50 shark then how much do we still need sharks?

Is it possible to brick-die-attach repeatedly to block FR entrance?

Do weasels actually want to become support ships and tactically shield their team rather than just killing, annoying, grabbing and escaping?

I would have thought that a lower duration, regenerating brick would work better but then I am not planning to weasel much and this ability seems untidy more than overpowered.