Public discussion reopened.

[Noah]

When we had Moot to care for our pubs this zone was a better place. We had threads popping up and a good discussion about how we wanted things to be. Now the pub situation is worse than ever, and we need to get this back on track.

The best thing would be to get Moot back as head of pubs, as you can see from the current state you are needed!

These days we usually only have one pub open, which is pub 0. Pub 0 is flawed in its current state, since the main pub should not contain levs. The argument for levis is to keep pubs open and FFA, but this isn't the case either. You still got votes coming up to restrict weasels (!) and javelins. What's the difference between restricting those ships and levs?

Currently it's neither a pure pub or a ffa pub, it's a bad mix of both. It isn't a third alternative either, an open pub where the population can vote on whatever they wish. The most important vote (disallow levs) has been omitted from the !listvotes list.

What do we want pub 0 to be?

I personally want it to be a pure pub simply because a pure pub is much more competitive. Unlike the standard wb spawn lev pub, it also is more dependent on a proper arena population. I love playing in a pure pub, but I never join a pub with less than 30 players, which is almost always the case for our second pub. So the second pub is never a viable option to me. I also think that pure pubs integrates players faster into TWD than a FFA pub. This is because it shows a new player how intense a proper base game can be, encouraging them to seek out more basing.

If this is too much to ask, then atleast put the vote to allow/disallow levs into pub 0. I see no reason why this should be taken out. There's not a real freedom to vote if the most crucial vote is left out.

Lastly, I have noticed that the second pub at times isn't always turned on as a pure pub. If you're going to keep up things as it is now, atleast be consistent and keep pure pub on in the second pub. During peak hours this pub sometimes gets enough to get a decent game going, so it's very annoying to go there just to see that pure pub is disabled.

Mootland, this is the time for your second coming.

[kthx]

You are behind the times, Mootland is already back and on the case.

[DankNuggets]

1) I'd say put the levi vote back in, and continue to test the voting system. restricted javs and restricted weasels aren't too different from purepub (no levis ofc) provided it's competitive enough not to have 10 javs per team anyway.

2) If there's enough of a consensus that levi's shouldn't be totally restricted from all pubs (a possible situation) then maybe the rule should be changed to be more like the jav/weasel restriction. I'm guessing those are based on a % of the team total, so just restrict it so that there wouldn't be more than one or two levis per team.

3) The old FFA/pure pub situation wasn't too bad except that some ppl complained preference was given to pub 0 (whichever config) since ppl started in there. If you decide to scrap the votes afterall, you should atleast alternate every few hours which pub is which to be fair to both sides.

[Mr. 420]

Let's Do This Thing!

1) Make ?go oldtrench3 the pub map - Less people and smaller base would up the action!

2) Remove levis, weasels, lancs, javs and wbs from pubs - Lets not give any choice to the players as to what ship they can play, force them into the "Big 3"

3) Put the cap on arena limit to 25 - More pubs available (10 per team + bots and add streaks)

4) "*kill 10" anyone who spawnkills or sits in spectator mode for more than 5 minutes.

5) Zone "%playername has captured the flag" everytime the flag changes hands.

6) Remove elims/javs/wb/javduels/tourny/etc.. TRENCHWARS IS BASING! If you want to play something other than the "Big 3", go play EG!

7) Make "?go distention and DBot" run 24/7 on weekends. Close ALL other arenas.

8) Make it so typing "?go afk" automatically disconnect you for X minutes. (You were going to be afk anyways)

9) Remove all <ER>'s. Make the good ones Mods, shit can the rest!

10) Disable pub chat in public.

11) Bring back Hal Wilkerson.

12) Turn TWL into a pyramid league and only for basing.

13) Ban anyone who whines, complains, has a suggestion, is nice, speaks when not spoken to, typos, uses incorrect grammar, swears, and flys next to another person too close!

[Lemmin]

Please bring back the pure pubs

Quite often these days, when I go to play pub I find that pub0 has voting running (but as pointed out, theres no option to disable levs) and the second pub has no bot in it at all.

Using a bit of ?help (usually takes a few minutes of spamming before someone deigns to reply) most normally brings the reply "theres noone on who can get the bot working" which seems ludicrous - its not THAT hard to grant people powers over these bots is it? Also worth pointing out that a lot of staff assume you can make pub0 into a pure pub by voting, when you can't - that option is disabled in pub0.

Pretty much the only thing in this zone I enjoy these days is pure pub. When I can't play, I generally get sad, and log off TW. I shouldn't need to point out that this hurts the zone (theres one less person online, so theres less chance of my squad finding/playing TWD games, which means less chance of other squads being able to play etc).

Please just bring back the old system of pure pub. Personally I'd like pure pub in pub0 (if people want to LT they can make another pub) but I'd be happy with a working pure pub in second pub.

Please also scrap this silly voting system - its confusing (the wording is odd, and you can't list votes until its ready for a vote to be taken), its open to abuse (easy enough and apparently legal to use second computers to log in and rig votes) and it annoys people rather than makes them happy - each vote means the losing voters are made angry with the system. Why not let people vote with their feet and choose their settings using ?go ?

I've heard people justify any changes by saying "its increased the population" and in the short term that may be true - people who don't normally play pub will come to check it out whenever something is changed. But a few weeks later they've gone back to elim or wherever, and the regular pubbers are left more and more dissatisfied and, like me, prone to logging off.

By all means change the layout of the base occasionally (fatbase would be awesome), but please leave the settings alone, and let us pure pub in peace!

LEM

[Liquid Blue]

Some suggestions

I love playing in a pure pub, but I never join a pub with less than 30 players, which is almost always the case for our second pub. So the second pub is never a viable option to me.

I understand this, and if you're like me it's because of private frequencies, levis, and 5-10 people are just wb's dueling below base.

I like the voting system, but I also have a few suggestions. 420 I only agree with one of your bullet points, but I think it should really be given some thought:

3) Put the cap on arena limit to 25 - More pubs available (10 per team + bots and add streaks)

I think Noah and 420 have something here. One of the bad things about pub, is the lack of people actually basing these days. There have always been a few wb's dueling below base but it's worse than ever now, with a pub having 27 or so people and only 6 or 7 are up in base, trying to get the flag.

When you have levi's, not only are you going to have a few people be levis, and a few run around as Terriers but also a few as wb's trying to protect the levis- it's a waste of manpower, in my opinion. But here are my suggestions:

Put the arena limit to 25- 10 people per team, and room for ER's, bots or spectators. In an effort to focus on basing, making the teams smaller will make each person that much more important to the team as a whole. It will also keep the action intense and keep the number of spectators/duelers to a minimum.

Take out Private Frequencies- In other arenas you can have them, but pubs need to focus on basing, and that can be done best by limiting the teams to two. No more LT's running around on their private frequency anymore, the action needs to be focused on Frq 1 and Frq 2.

Take out Levis. Initially, I was going to say one levi per team, but like I mentioned above, way too many people waste manpower in trying to protect the levi while it makes it's way to the flagroom- where it stays alive for what, 5 minutes? It's a waste and a distraction, people need to stay latched onto the action in fr instead of trying to hunt for a levi or protect/green one.

Pub events- Make things interesting, draw the people in.

To start things off, these pub events should last the weekend, and should alternate every other weekend (to build up hype)- Friday, Sat, Sunday. Events I'm suggesting-

-"Pure Pub" (using stats above, double points for everyone)

-"LT Pub" (4 teams of 5, no other frequencies allowed. Two levi's max per team. 5 last spots are for spectators/bots/ER's)

-"Stranger in a Strange Land"- (Two teams of 10, only 1 spider and Jav allowed on each team, no levi's. If popular enough, rotate event; each time only one of each for two specific ships on each team)

-more to come if I think of them

Give them recognition

The top 3 or 4 overall scorers of these weekends should get zone-wide recognition for the week after the event- make it a zone message congratulating them on kicking ass over the weekend. Also recognition on the TW page, and in the Trench Wars section of the forums. One of the biggest things about this zone is the social aspect, and we should try to use that to our advantage. People like to see positive shit about them, even in an game like this. Recognition will make alot of people try harder so they can become well-known, or stay that way.


There are some other ideas bouncing around but I have to head to work so that's the initial jist~

EDIT- Shit I just remembered- Test pub. I think during the weeknights, a pub should be available that is a test pub of sorts- where an older version of base might be put up, or maybe a new base at the bottom, basically a place where the public can see some different things and staff can guage how popular certain new aspects might become. That way during every other weekend we can have an event to draw people in, and during the week everyone can put their heads together and try shit out to see what works and what doesn't.

bai

[Kontrolz]

Thank god this is being brought up.

Maybe we can just start simple and allow the majority of people in a pub to vote on whether or not they want levis at that point in time. I don't know why that was ever removed to begin with, that is THE most important vote. Everything else is pretty minor compared to the levi restrict/unrestrict vote.

Whether you love or hate levis I think everyone knows that levis drastically change the way action unfolds in a public arena. It's ridiculous when I can't jav (which I rarely do anyway) because they are restricted but I can go ahead and get into a levi and tk 10 times the amount of people I would have tk'd in a jav.

All these other ideas can continue to be debated but at LEAST bring back the option to vote to restrict levis as soon as possible. It never should have been removed to begin with.

[Lemmin]

All these other ideas can continue to be debated but at LEAST bring back the option to vote to restrict levis as soon as possible. It never should have been removed to begin with.

Its removed in pub0, but when the bot is working in second pub, you can vote to allow/restrict levs... I can kind of see the point, if you are a lev and you've spent 10 minutes getting your bounty and making it to safe and organising a terrier-slave to drive you around, then it would be really annoying to be voted out of your ship, thats a lot of wasted time.

Given that the default state of pubs is to allow levis, I think it would make sense to bring pure pub home to pub0 (which a bot can always find after a reset) and allow subsequent pubs to fill with levis. After all, if you want to lev you can always ?go 33 and make a new pub, but if you want to pure pub and there isn't a bot you can't just ?go to an arena.

[Lemmin]

Old but relevant thread?

This oldish (4 months old) thread might be relevant - some of the suggestions have been superceded, but others are still good:

http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?p=678607

LEM

[Pub]

fuckin haters, I'm fine the way I am

[Battlecat]

Pub 0 should be the pub with the full list of votes so it can be pure when players want it that way. If people want to levterr and wb duel in spawn they can cruise on over to the next pub since their style of play doesn't depend as much on the population of the arena.

When I decided to come back and play this December after three years retirement, the basing in the pure pub with the votes was the most fun I've had playing in pub since 2001 when I found where the flag was. And that's why I'm still playing today.

Please don't take away the vote to remove levs. It's the most important vote and really it determines how fun that pub will be to play in for the people playing for the flag.

[CaptainPoopface]

Very glad these things are being brought up. It seems like levs have been controversial for years. The thing is, they rely on the basing game. They need basers to bomb once they bounty up and attach. But they also ruin the basing game, so the basers either leave, or reluctantly join the LT hunt or spawn duel. I think the inevitable result will be a faster loss of population in the pubs, and of course that will have repercussions beyond pub.

I very strongly dislike how the levi/spawn dueling pub is the default. Purepub should be the default, because it is more population-critical, more intense, more consistent with the objectives of the Trench Wars zone, more likely to retain players and encourage them to advance into leagues. To be fair, we could implement Dank's idea where the default is alternated (I'd prefer daily vs. hourly).

The lev players have argued they should have some place to play. I can see the logic to that. But let it be the second pub, so they have to base while they wait for enough people to bomb/TK. We've certainly done the converse for long enough. This would be less controversial if the arena population caps were lowered.


Here's my list of suggestions, in order of importance:

• ALWAYS have a purepub (timed game, !warp option, no levs).
• Make purepub the default, or swap the default every day
• Lower the population cap. With 40, it's much harder to start a second pub because everyone wants to be in the 40-person game.
• If population caps are lowered, shuffle spectators to afk after a short time, or make spectators not count toward (or be displayed in) the arena poplation.
• Swap in a new pub map for 2 days out of the week. Breath of fresh air FTW.
• Voting system is a great idea overall. Make votes last 10 minutes instead of 5. Make the list always available (put it in the graphics at A1, in the F1 help text, in news.txt). Make votes mutually exclusive so there is no filibustering.
• Make a general-purpose polling arena where we can periodically conduct zone-wide player polls without requiring forum participation. Milosh already built one for elimbeta, IIRC. It should be adaptable.
• When javs or weasels are restricted and someone is in a restricted ship, after 10 minutes or their first TK, whichever comes first, automatically change them to a spider and prize them energy deplete greens for 10 seconds so someone else on the team has a chance to be the restricted ship. Or some other queue system.
• Put a streak module in the impure pub, but NOT in purepub (good for dueling, bad for basing). Also display kill rate (kills/minute) so that campers and roofers earn less e-respect.
• Overhaul MVP for purepub. Most enemy terr kills, most kills, most flag claims, Biggest teamfer, etc.
• Consider a king of the hill mode for the impure pub only . A bot would randomly pick a 10x10 area of the map, display a graphic there, and all kills from within the hill are awarded an extra 20 points. After a few minutes, the hill moves. This is another concession to the spawn duelers. It may not ultimately be popular but could at least be tested or voted on. Also if there is no basing (because the basers are in purepub), it gives the levs something else to bomb.

I am semi-officially part of bot dev and would love to work on these things. I think pub is the keystone of TW, so it should be well taken care of. Someone lasso MMaverick and have him contact me so I can get into the dev server.

[Lemmin]

I love poopface's ideas. They are all good. I hope you have the chance to implement them poopy!

Definately change the pub map 2 days a week, but make them weekdays (tuesday/weds? maybe) NOT weekends. Keep normal map for weekends.

Definately pub limit back to 36 (including bots) or maybe 34 - that gives around 15 per team. The current limit of 40 makes for slightly TOO intense battles. This should also increase the number of pubs active.

You are right, Levs do require basers. I tend to think of levterrs as parasites - they need basers. Without basers, they have noone to kill (think of an arena with just levterrs, would they be able to fight each other?) - basers do NOT need levterrs. Therefore they contribute nothing to pub, and only leech off it.

I'd be willing to consider levs in pubs if they had no way of attaching or staying attached to terriers. However I can't see how this is possible. It wouldn't really matter if NO ship could stay attached for more than a second, but I still can't see how that would be done...

LEM

[Troll King]

I've been asking for smaller arena sizes for years now. When you have larger arenas, you have more people in each of them doing things that flow against what we're trying to achieve in pubs. And then they increased it instead.

If you lower the number from 40 to 30, you'll likely decrease the number of levis per arena by two. You'll also increase the number of pubs arenas that way too, which I feel helps make for a healthier zone as well. Back when the zone had several pubs going at once, I usually found better basing in arenas that were less than full because there were fewer levis and less chance of getting hunted down by non-basers. Having more people in an arena actually encourages people to levi and float around in the spawn areas for kills by providing them with more targets. Its benefits to encourage basing are relatively minimal.

[Izor]

I actually rather like the ability to vote on what the current game is. If more pubbers want to enjoy the dueling game, they will vote to disable the timed game/warp/etc and then basers can live with those rules, instead of basers having pubs tailored to their play for the last several years. On the flip side, if most of the pub wants to base, and im trying to play wb, im going to be stuck on a pub freq getting spammed with 'ATTACH!!!!' and getting warped into deaths every time i have high bty.

The thing that has always annoyed me is people telling me what pub should focus on. "I'm a wb, so you should never restrict priv freqs because thats bad for the game cause LD is the biggest league" or "I'm a baser, so the point of this game is to get the flag...all priv freqs do is get in the way of the objective" When I log in to the single pub late at night that has votes turned on, a lot of the time the timed game is shut down because people at these hours dont care about basing. During prime time there is one pub that plays base and one pub that doesnt...whats the problem here?