Zone-wide meeting for players and staff.

[Ricko]

I'm going to be honest here, I love basing and having flagroom battles in base but we really; yes, TW has a basing focus but there has always been wbs fighting below base and that is EXACTLY how I developed an interest in wb (which also happens to be, or was, the #1 viewed twl event). BY forcing people into basing in pub means that players aren't experiencing wb anymore and through this we have seen a huge decline in any new wbs coming to twd and quite a few newer up and coming basers. Pub never used to force players to base, it let people do what they want to and trial basing or wb fighting below base etc and decide on their own terms if they want to focus their playing time on wb, basing or javving.

I feel a large part of this push for a focus on basing is due to the fact that 80% of staff and upper staff are basers. Obviously I'm not trying to bash my colleagues here, but we do need to consider that with such a focus on the basing side of pub we're seeing a decline of wbs. (I think this is completely irrelevant to the thread, but it should be brought up in the meeting).

Sorry somehow deleted part of the top line so it makes no sense, it should read as 'I love basing and having flagroom battles in base but we really need to consider wbs and out of base fighting as it is verging on non existant these days'.

[Fork]

An idea of a smaller spawn area, no safety map with the base even more prominently displayed will be tossed out, because with streaks gone and killothon removed from spawn there is literally no reason to be in the spawn zone/safes at all.

Possible solutions:

1) Maybe they should alter killothon so kills only add up if your killing in flagroom or just in the middle --- solution solved!


2) Maybe for the spawning part (allow ships to b invincible for 3-5 seconds after they spawn in game unless they attach) - if possible- if not ALLOW this for new players with a usage of under 15 hrs. This will prevent people waiting in spawn area and annoy new players to the point of them quitting.


3) If it was me: New players should be invincible for this first 2-5 mins of play while completing a tutorial in pub (so they truely see what its all about/ mess about with controls without dying every 20 secs)- they are allowed to kill. Y allow this? coz if your trying to learn how this game runs... your gonna be put off by annoying people chasing you and killing you every 20 seconds. They just need to make sure people dont abuse it so people try and create new accounts to be invincible (but should go off ip address?)

The prob is if you change anything... someone is always not gonna be happy (cant please everyone)- but changes should be focused more on making it addictive/ fun for new players entering game for the first time.

Heres the problems:

1) Pub needs to be more addictive + different to how its been for the past 10+ years. ?cant think of anything other than people winning a small amount of real cash for the 3 best pubbers in a period of 3months- Advertise this on the map itself in spawn area "top best 3 pubbers win $___" and have a mini splash box with the current top 10 players displayed in a corner of the screen. Also advertise it on the main website. Trial it out... im willing to donate $25 just to see if the population rises slightly or not.

or extra bonus's: Adding 2 extra flags when its popular- 1 on the left corner next to flagroom- one on the right... keep the middle flag as it is. Keep it that you can win just by controlling only the middle flag for 3 mins but if a team that controls all 3 flags before the 3 mins is up gets x3 bonus.

2) Incorporating twd and pub so new players can see what twd is about before they quit lol. (Atm the best way to do this is for nice caps to spam "join my squad for squad battles" for every new player that enters game)

3) Applying to a squad is hard for new players... somehow make it easier?

Ok im wasting my day off... done- time to shop!.

[Shaddowknight]

Real money prizes don't really help, why pay our vets to keep laming newbies all day? We have actual pub pub achievements, not just end of the round ones too. They are displayed in your public stats profile on trenchwars.org. We just don't use them for anything currently.

The extra flags for higher times would need another map change (to block them off) and a bot coding change (Having multiple flags would most certainly screw up the pub bot with flag time)

TWD does NOT belong in pub. There are zoners when top teams play, but perhaps we need to have something that shows who the top twd teams in each division are put somewhere. Putting it in pub is wrong, but if we put enough things about it where players can see, then it will still garner the attention of players to wonder what it is. Perhaps a bot-generated objon (or monthly standings) between pub rounds (not every round, butpub runs a game to (I think) 5 rounds before new games- this would be a perfect time for it).

I don't see why applying to a squad must be done on the website, using a bot for it should be something that can be done. I can talk to dsb about this to see if he would agree on it.



Keep bringing the ideas and topics.

[Ephemeral]

The reason that basing is the focus of TW has nothing to do with staffers being basers; basing is the primary objective of the zone. The first objective from the TW web site states; “To maintain the game play focus of this zone; Basing, and to promote it to newer players and establish it within the community (Publics)…”. This ties into the main teamwork element in the mission statement.

So while other aspects of the zone are certainly important, it is first and foremost a basing zone. (If the demand is there I assume the mission statement and primary objectives to the Zone can be changed to focus on dueling.) But I have been helping new players since 24 implemented the new-player alert and I have never once had a new player ask me how to duel. Perhaps someone who has access to the help calls stats can weigh in here and provide some insight into how many help calls concern dueling as another possible measure of popularity.

Please also note that we also promote basing and teamwork in our marketing efforts; view the current Steam demonstration for an example. It is filled with screens showing ‘massive team play’; it is how we attract new players to the zone.

Simply put, I don’t think that focus of the zone is derived from the majority of staffers being basers; the majority of staff are basers because that is the focus of the zone.

And I would also add that I reject any implication that all staffers use their power to for selfish reasons (as in ‘I am a baser therefore the zone should be about basing’). I just joined staff but I can tell you that the first thing I did was to reject the idea that I was going to follow the path of the ZH -> ER -> Smod etc. I don’t fucking care if I can do a zoner, silence someone, or ban someone. I simply want to help the zone and feel the best way to do this is to help new players; being a ZH gives me some tools that do just this.
I am not alone on staff with this kind of thinking, there are others who have good motives for being on staff. Are their some who do not have pure motives? Of course. Are there some who are smart enough to hide their selfish power hunger behind pure motives? Probably. But this is what happens to ANY kind of power structure (i.e police force, corporate world, etc.). The best anyone can do is weed out those who abuse and this is exactly what I see happening (now and in previous years with staff).

Our zone population has reached critical mass (critical mass = number of new players needed to sustain the zone). People are freaking out because for the first time it is now apparent that the future of the Zone truly hangs in the balance. This is causing emotions to run high and some doing things that they might not normally do. Every aspect of the zone is being impacted by the shrinking population. The development group is trying to maintain an ever larger ball of code with less resources and less players using the code than ever before. So when we hear from them they have their own perspective on what is important. Those that have dedicated large amounts of time to a league think that their league is the most important aspect of the Zone. Ditto for <ERs> and players who have poured time into events.

We simply need to get the Zone population back above critical mass. This was what gave us the luxury of diversity. If we want the diversity we have to first get the zone population back above critical mass. If we get distracted by debate over the diversity we stand a good chance at losing the zone. When you and your kids are starving you don’t waste debating the great deserts you used to eat; you roll up your sleeves and figure out how to put 3 square meals on the table.
eph

[Ricko]

eph, I meant my comment as more of a small statement that we need to not forget that people have always used the bottom half of our pub map to duel and fight outside base....in no way am I saying that it is a huge issue and that staff are all basers so are corrupt and just want everyone to base. You know me, I want to help this zone out massively as you do, I was just throwing it out there for the sake of potential wbs and duelers that we cannot forget that this is an aspect of our zone (and always has been, in leagues and pub DESPITE the fact we are stating ourselves as a basing zone). And yes, being a 'basing' zone you do expect a lot of staffers to be basers, but look at all twd ladders and twl attendances to playoff games (until more recently) and there used to be far more wb/jav spectators and participants than basing.
I'd like to re-iterate that I do love basing, I'm just trying to ensure that we do not forget our dueling aspect at all.

[Ricko]

eph, I meant my comment as more of a small statement that we need to not forget that people have always used the bottom half of our pub map to duel and fight outside base....in no way am I saying that it is a huge issue and that staff are all basers so are corrupt and just want everyone to base. You know me, I want to help this zone out massively as you do, I was just throwing it out there for the sake of potential wbs and duelers that we cannot forget that this is an aspect of our zone (and always has been, in leagues and pub DESPITE the fact we are stating ourselves as a basing zone).

And yes, being a 'basing' zone you do expect a lot of staffers to be basers, but look at all twd ladders and twl attendances during playoff games (until more recently) of the last 10 years; we had far more wb/jav spectators and participants than basing.

I'd like to re-iterate that I do love basing, I'm just trying to ensure that we do not forget our dueling aspect at all.

[Izor]

Maybe it's time to update that mission statement. TWLD was always this game's premier league. Hell basers didnt even invent the cram until like season 5 or 6 because the league was an afterthought. Dueling was a huge part of the zone and somewhere around the introduction of purepubs in 2004 is about the time that things started shifting toward basing being the primary focus of everything. I'm not trying to be selfish here and say dueling is all that matters. No change or idea I have ever proposed detracts significantly from the basing game, because it is also an important aspect of the pub and zone. But things like the killothon change and streak change are clearly the result of a mindset in staff that dueling is an illegitimate style of gameplay for this zone. Killothon is meant to be played in spawn and was meant that way from the start. If you talk to players who actually enjoy this new change, it's because they had a harder time getting into the base 1/6 of the time they play pub but they made it a huge deal like it ended everything. I won't even try to explain away the streak safe change. I guess at one point levterrs were still really broken. This most recent one was strictly done for personal reasons as I've never seen another player hiding in safe with streaks over the last several weeks.

Eph, I've seen some of your posts about how this game is supposed to be open-ended which is a lot of what made this game fun to probably most of the people who are old vets. What I'm telling you is that it's no longer open ended because all of the changes have been restricting any other style of play besides the basing game. Those guys that used to LT and wb in spawn didnt just magically convert into basers overnight. They got bored over time and quit. Now if you look at it there arent wb's joining wb squads in TWD, and the guys that are left are playing other games like lol cause they cant get any matches, so the situation is going to get worse rapidly like we've seen unless the underlying cause is fixed.

[Izor]

I guess instead of just whining I can actually make a few suggestions of things to discuss. My short list.

- Remove fis from pub. I'm not going to say I mean no offense but with the exception of the second levi change everything has been terrible. The changes we've gotten from her are either unimportant like modifying the costs of items in the store and slightly tweaking lag limits or downright detrimental to the game like turning !warp on by default and resetting streaks in safe. We've even wasted dev's time on petty things like a sportsmanship fine and the other things I've ranted about. Ephemeral or a veteran player like Kthx both have much more experience and better judgment not to be narrowly focused on one thing. They will also listen to people. I see Eph doing that on forums and Kthx was a legendary staffer for his ability to handle players in his hosted events/trouble calls.

- Remove or at least reset pub bucks. If we're going to make unselfish changes for the benefit of new players, this is priority 1A for very obvious reasons.

- If consolidation or drawing down arenas is talked about, wbduel/javduel need to be the first to go. New players have no chance of being added if veterans get cap there, so elim/belim are better.

- Revert to the 1 pixel weasel. It may be annoying but at least it had a purpose. This goes along with my pub bucks idea. It's not 'OP' if it cant spam !buy rep/rocket

[Ricko]

killothon should be reverted back to including outside of the base so people have an opportunity to play for it and duel below base.....there are no current features to pub play in my mind that promote wb or jav.

[bandcampgirl]

killothon should be reverted back to including outside of the base so people have an opportunity to play for it and duel below base.....there are no current features to pub play in my mind that promote wb or jav.

yep lotta peeps left when they ruined killothon.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

would be cool to place a spawn-safezone between base and current spawn,
this way everyone can choose if they go to base for basing or go to spawn for wbing/ killothon
and this way noone would get spawned unnecessary, free choice
newbs could make their own choice like this and read the tutorial in all rest
remove the other big safezones
keep the same time limit of 30min, else dc
i would make the entrance to base a little wider
2bad i cant make it saturday, but would be cool if something like this was talked about

[Fork]

Real money prizes don't really help, why pay our vets to keep laming newbies all day? We have actual pub pub achievements, not just end of the round ones too. They are displayed in your public stats profile on trenchwars.org. We just don't use them for anything currently.

The extra flags for higher times would need another map change (to block them off) and a bot coding change (Having multiple flags would most certainly screw up the pub bot with flag time)

TWD does NOT belong in pub. There are zoners when top teams play, but perhaps we need to have something that shows who the top twd teams in each division are put somewhere. Putting it in pub is wrong, but if we put enough things about it where players can see, then it will still garner the attention of players to wonder what it is. Perhaps a bot-generated objon (or monthly standings) between pub rounds (not every round, butpub runs a game to (I think) 5 rounds before new games- this would be a perfect time for it).

I don't see why applying to a squad must be done on the website, using a bot for it should be something that can be done. I can talk to dsb about this to see if he would agree on it.



Keep bringing the ideas and topics.

well I don't think many people get exited over a pub achievement- I've had one once and it didn't mean anything- you don't see anyone in game compare pub achievements with each other, in fact I've not seen anyone mention it yet... having said that- i dont pub that often. My idea is that we need to motivate people/ get old players or new hooked to pub- I can understand that real cash rewards will b handed to vets- but if new players can see what they can win and the message is clear on the pub arena when they log in- u suggesting that they won't bother? Who knows what will happen? People do crazy things and if I throw in some cash it will cause 0 harm??? If they make it so the reward goes to the top 3 people that gained the most points in flag room then people won't spawn outside base- or something similar thats possible to do.

We need to consider how serious pub should be... because if more people want it to be serious and competitive than remove super weapons- it can put people off trying so hard... i mean its not even skill that kills you... its just someone typing in a super weapon command. On the other hand- it does look more fun initially for new players and its them we should really target.

TWD does not belong in pub??? Well without twd- this population would be very very low... it can be very addictive and personally its the best thing about this game. I no there are a few players that only want to play pub but thats usually because they dont have time to play competitive games/ they are not very active enough/ they have had a bad experience/ competition isnt fun for them (prefer chilling out) or don't know how good twd is. New players have got to know about twd and what it is before they quit because once they see the competition lvl/ and be on a friendly squad who are willing to help them out- cheer them on- they should be hooked. Pub doesnt really offer this to the level of twd. Also knowing that new players enter pub and quit the game while they were in pub- It seems so silly to seperate twd completely from pub when they are both part of the same zone. This is why they need to get more of a message about twd whilst in pub unless its on some kind of tutorial.

Atm the only thing we non staffers can do to help improve this game is:

Have 4 motivated/ dedicated captains running their own squads... they recruit new players and anyone from pub. Staff help out by directing new players to these squads. The only rules on these squads are to b nice. You can be inactive if you want (allowing some people to join a squad anyway and realize twd is fun and they find themselves active). What these squads try and do is they recruit enough new players to eventually vs themselves. The squad battles should be evenly matched since most of them are new... so new players are not put off by losing every game- they eventually win one. These squads build up over 6 months. Now many players including myself have tried this but we need to keep it up... last time i did this my computer died and took so long to repair my squad dissolved.

[Shaddowknight]

There used to be three places witu diff levels of competiton. Pure pub was heavy, but casual competition. Normal pubs were loosely competetive and not very serious. Then there was TWD, where the real deal was at.
Right now the current pub doesnt allow for a loose casual game. We dont have the players to support two big pubs to allow for all three levels of competition, and we have seen with current pub, shoving two of those (casual competition and casual fun pubbing) dont mixvery well.

[Izor]

??????????

Pure pub was the clusterfuck of basers that we see now today thanks to all the other changes, and LT's on private freqs roamed the other empty pubs lobbing shots into empty FR's along with people in spec waiting for slots to open up in purepub. Seriously it was one of the worst changes someone has ever brought to this game, effectively killing the multi-pub system before the high playerbase had run its course. I eventually bitched enough about it back then and it got removed, first reenabling private freqs then they developed a new less LT friendly map and allowed levis. Now those same changes are back in place via rewarding people for going to flag and taking away every measure of 'fun' you could have in spawn.

There was pub for casual, elims/base for semi serious, twd for a little more serious, and twl for those that wanted to be good in those times. Maybe that'll refresh your memory. Pub has never been about heavy anything.

This current tool crusading against the spawn game needs to go if we're going to make any progress toward restoring this game to its former fun state. A lot of these modules can be fun if applied appropriately. It's just a shame to see streaks end cause people gotta piss and kills only count in 'killothon' at certain parts of the map.

[Shaddowknight]

I do agree that we put too much emphasis on the basing competition in pub, and 10 pubbux duels don't quite cut it for casual pubbing. LT's were harmful to the game, regardless of how much FUN the 2-5 people on it were having. I have some ideas, but won't share them yet. Come to the meeting and if I dont have time to mention them there I will let you know about them after I work on the idea and bring it to fiS (assuming she agress it's potentially viable)