Engine Shutdown - Limiting LT potential

[Dr. Gene Ray]

Hello,
After taking a few years off from the game, I came back and was happy to see a lot of familiar names playing, as well as a lot of new features in the game. Pub bucks are a great addition, as well as the shifting map. Very cool.

After playing a few hours, a couple things struck me as very dramatic shifts to the game play, specifically lev terring. Back in the day I pretty much only lev terred, or hunted lev terrs, trying to bag the big bounties they would accumulate, all the way up to 1500+ bounty. There is nothing quite like it in the game, securing a basing win is impressive but can be achieved in just a few minutes, whereas a 1000+ bounty LT may have been playing for an hour or more to climb that high. Writing an end to their stories always felt like a significant achievement.

Antiwarp was always a dangerous ship upgrade to play against, the only thing a terrier can do when in range of it is run, and if it is attached to a terrier hunting you, escaping could become tremendously difficult. Many of my biggest LT kill streaks would fall victim to antiwarp.

Now however, terriers cannot even run to escape antiwarp. An engine shutdown purchase, coupled with antiwarp, leaves the terrier to the mercy of the hunters, with only a few repels and maybe a protecting ship such as a lanc or WB to try to save the bounty. It leads to much lower bounties on the LTs, and a nearly impossible climb to the bounties once reached playing this style. High bounty LTs, fun to play as and equally as fun to hunt, have become extremely rare. And forget trying to do just terrier and lev with no support, as the engine shutdown and antiwarp combo will almost certainly end your run.

I have much less of a problem with the roof turret concept, zoning out lev terrs from the roof for a duration is fine by me. It makes their play more predictable and they will have to stay on their toes when hunters know they cannot go to the roof.

I also miss the blinking bricks in the tubes on the sides of the mid map, this was one of the only methods of escaping the base when anti warped. Though even that is a small issue, I think, next to the engine shutdown + anti warp combo.

Does anyone else miss the potential of lev terring, and hunting high bounty lev terrs? Or has the game and attitude about lev terrs shifted so much that they need to have their potential capped. I think the potential should not have such a hard cap on it, the skill ceiling is lowered and players cannot excel and show their true skill at LT kill streaks. Likewise hunters lose the thrill of the chase, when someone can spend some pub bucks and shut down whatever is going on with an LT.

Anyway I'm having fun tooling around as the terrier and doing little blink/burst plays, game is still very fun in that regard. It's held up well over time. Thanks to the staff for their work on keeping trenchwars open for business.

Cheers,

Dr. Gene

[Shaddowknight]

Back in the day, having lt's with high power/bounty was fine, because players still had options to pub without lt's in other pub arenas. Now that we only have one, we have to keep it more balanced for the actual basing gameplay as well as other aspects. Levis have changed a few times in the past month, as we had tried a different configuration on it. The current settings allow players to leviterr, but not to the point that the basing game becomes a side-plan to lt-hunting. It was a necessary change to the current settings to still allow lt's, but not allow them to have free reign on the basing game.

[Zeebu]

remove the option for anyone to buy anything outside of safe and it would be fun to both LT and hunt LTs again.

[Dr. Gene Ray]

Back in the day, having lt's with high power/bounty was fine, because players still had options to pub without lt's in other pub arenas. Now that we only have one, we have to keep it more balanced for the actual basing gameplay as well as other aspects. Levis have changed a few times in the past month, as we had tried a different configuration on it. The current settings allow players to leviterr, but not to the point that the basing game becomes a side-plan to lt-hunting. It was a necessary change to the current settings to still allow lt's, but not allow them to have free reign on the basing game.

I agree that we can't treat it the same as it used to be, due to the smaller player base. But tools have been added, such as the roof bot, and purchase anywhere, that have really made it easier to control the LTs. What bothers me is it seems to be one step too far, I think Zeebu might have had a better suggestion with limiting buys to safe zones, rather than my suggestion to remove engine shutdown. Or maybe even remove leviathans from private frequencies? Right now a couple hunters and some item purchases have too good a chance of killing your bounty, and what does it accomplish but to make you go green the lev again, then the threat returns. It only serves to ratchet down the thrill of staying alive for so long, or hunting someone with a huge kill streak. With the kill streak system in place now, wouldn't it be so cool if you ended someone's 150-200 kill streak? I just doubt people would bother to build a bounty like that knowing pretty much anyone could end it.

Maybe I'm just too nostalgic, I realize the dwindling player base is a problem and maybe the "Golden Age" so to speak of Lev Terring is over. I feel like a small tweak like a purchase anywhere change, or shutdown removal, could build some interest back into LTing. Restricting levs to pub frequencies may have some merit as well. I've been gone for so long though, I don't really know how TW landed where it has, so I don't know what would be good for it. Maybe everyone is happy with where the LTing potential is at right now and I'm in the minority. :nice:

[BooBiesYaY]

I agree that we can't treat it the same as it used to be, due to the smaller player base. But tools have been added, such as the roof bot, and purchase anywhere, that have really made it easier to control the LTs. What bothers me is it seems to be one step too far, I think Zeebu might have had a better suggestion with limiting buys to safe zones, rather than my suggestion to remove engine shutdown. Or maybe even remove leviathans from private frequencies? Right now a couple hunters and some item purchases have too good a chance of killing your bounty, and what does it accomplish but to make you go green the lev again, then the threat returns. It only serves to ratchet down the thrill of staying alive for so long, or hunting someone with a huge kill streak. With the kill streak system in place now, wouldn't it be so cool if you ended someone's 150-200 kill streak? I just doubt people would bother to build a bounty like that knowing pretty much anyone could end it.

Maybe I'm just too nostalgic, I realize the dwindling player base is a problem and maybe the "Golden Age" so to speak of Lev Terring is over. I feel like a small tweak like a purchase anywhere change, or shutdown removal, could build some interest back into LTing. Restricting levs to pub frequencies may have some merit as well. I've been gone for so long though, I don't really know how TW landed where it has, so I don't know what would be good for it. Maybe everyone is happy with where the LTing potential is at right now and I'm in the minority. :nice:

its all pointless now anyway, the changes today killed levs and lting lol. level 2 bombs now. you havent been on for a while gene but levs have been changed probably 5 times in 1-2 years back and forth back and forth. 2 reps, 4 reps, no reps, lvl 3 bombs, lvl 4 bombs lvl 2 bombs.. its the most ridiculously unstable ship. cant buy in safe, can buy in safe.

[Azov]

I'm not happy with the lev changes. Changes that should happen are: Level 3 bombs return, rotation increased, rocket as standard option, bounty to attach kept at 10 (that was a good idea), and be able to purchase items outside of safe.

Weasels should be made small again, and the current settings kept (losing power with cloak and shields both on - that's smart).

[mtine]

Another thing TW Staff has done to "improve" the game. Man, even a 4-year old cud run dis game better than our 30+ "experienced" noobz. LOL TW STAFF SUX DIK!

[KrynetiX]

Changes that should happen are: Level 3 bombs return, rotation increased, rocket as standard option, bounty to attach kept at 10 (that was a good idea), and be able to purchase items outside of safe.

If we gave Levi L3 bombs again, AND increased rotation, AND gave it a rocket, AND attach bounty of 10 .... pub would die. LT's would bomb it to the point nobody is playing and the LT's leave as well.

I for one don't want an empty pub.

[Azov]

If we gave Levi L3 bombs again, AND increased rotation, AND gave it a rocket, AND attach bounty of 10 .... pub would die. LT's would bomb it to the point nobody is playing and the LT's leave as well.

I for one don't want an empty pub.

Well I've been posting as I've been experimenting with the levs today. I think if we keep level 2 bombs, then we should improve rotation and speed somewhat. My thinking is this: We limited the mobility of the levi because of the level 3 bombs. So the trade off is if we cut down on the offensive potential of the levi, we should at least boost its defensive capabilities to give a player a better chance. Levi's would be great if they were a bit harder to kill. It would make it more sporting to hunt them.

[Dr. Gene Ray]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the level 2 bombs either. Risky close quarter shots are easier. I like the more powerful bombs, feels like you're playing with fire. Lower power bombs are just nerfball...

After playing for a few days I really can't criticize the state of the game, just aren't as many people playing nowadays. Raising the skill ceiling might be bad for the game. Still not a fan of engine shutdown though. XD

[bkgmjo]

So I talked to many LT players, none of them was asked before experiments with them started once again, same goes for the weasel players. Actually nobody who plays pub really got asked if they want a total change of the game and what is going on really does change the whole game.

From the info I got from various staffers and players it is simply another "Demonic's non-pub friends whine => Demonic makes people leave the game again in favor of her friends who cannot play enough because they pissed people off from twd." and gets supported by even more non-pub players.

I also tried to find if the deans of staff have any say in this: no. My question there: Why?

Maybe this new experiment was inspired by too heavy complaints about levs? No, actually complaints about LTs and levs alike really got down to a minimum in pub before and basers frequently called for a LT on their team.

I tried asking about a dozen staffers about why the decision was made to promote extreme laming by totally overpowering a weasel and giving out a reward for the best spawn lev lamer and did not get a real answer so I have to think there simply is none. Also nobody could tell me why all ships but the lev can buy stuff in base. Especially with three entrances a few extra repels for your basing team's heavy defense would be nice but no. Instead we add game-destroying buys like flagsteal and strikebase and keep enabling and disabling them.

Also the punishment rules clearly go against levs. A teamkiller gets shiplocked very quickly, often even for accidental teamkills or some to save your teams base and flag. Do you know what a guy gets for spechunting a lev in spawn? 15 minutes of being specced. That is after they were freely spechunting for hours until someone feels like responding to cheater calls and then doesn't leave within 2 minutes of watching again.

Now to top it all staffers now have a requirement to play pub for so and so long each month. Did you look at what happens? Those who did not play pub before and now have to just mine the tubes, cloak in spawn, anti on roof or simply float around idle (asking them why usually results in "retards making me have to pub"). Is this what you call promoting basing or making the game more fun for anyone?

So, dear KrynetiX and next pub heads: I might not agree with all your decisions and some might be good as well as some might be bad. But as sole head of pub make a clear stand: Kill the lev from the game directly and remove a part which has been there for many years or let it be what it was. Messing around back and forth will not help anyone, especially not if nothing gets tested before and each change starts with a ton of bugs. Keep the game reliable and don't annoy me and others with a new shipset, buyset and map constantly. I seriously doubt any player likes having to get used to a new zone every time he tries to enter the known one.

[Jones]

What I don't really get is this whole idea that you need to balance the ships. Trench Wars ship settings have NEVER been balanced. The warbird is so much more powerful than any other ship. If you want balanced ships you should head over to Chaos zone where every ship is able to fight each other.

The whole reason you're trying to balance ships is for promoting the basing in the zone and you can't balance levs and wzl's, this is why they are not permitted in twlb. so, any changes you make to these ships will be bad for some and good for some others, it is pointless to try. There are bigger changes needed to be made for this zone, like, i dunno, proper twl website, functioning bots and <ER>'s who can actually manually host if the bots crash.

[roxxkatt]

you can't balance levs and wzls.

fixed

more accurately is that noone has gotten it right yet, and even if they had, change is different and scary

[BooBiesYaY]

So I talked to many LT players, none of them was asked before experiments with them started once again, same goes for the weasel players. Actually nobody who plays pub really got asked if they want a total change of the game and what is going on really does change the whole game.

From the info I got from various staffers and players it is simply another "Demonic's non-pub friends whine => Demonic makes people leave the game again in favor of her friends who cannot play enough because they pissed people off from twd." and gets supported by even more non-pub players.

I also tried to find if the deans of staff have any say in this: no. My question there: Why?

Maybe this new experiment was inspired by too heavy complaints about levs? No, actually complaints about LTs and levs alike really got down to a minimum in pub before and basers frequently called for a LT on their team.

I tried asking about a dozen staffers about why the decision was made to promote extreme laming by totally overpowering a weasel and giving out a reward for the best spawn lev lamer and did not get a real answer so I have to think there simply is none. Also nobody could tell me why all ships but the lev can buy stuff in base. Especially with three entrances a few extra repels for your basing team's heavy defense would be nice but no. Instead we add game-destroying buys like flagsteal and strikebase and keep enabling and disabling them.

Also the punishment rules clearly go against levs. A teamkiller gets shiplocked very quickly, often even for accidental teamkills or some to save your teams base and flag. Do you know what a guy gets for spechunting a lev in spawn? 15 minutes of being specced. That is after they were freely spechunting for hours until someone feels like responding to cheater calls and then doesn't leave within 2 minutes of watching again.

Now to top it all staffers now have a requirement to play pub for so and so long each month. Did you look at what happens? Those who did not play pub before and now have to just mine the tubes, cloak in spawn, anti on roof or simply float around idle (asking them why usually results in "retards making me have to pub"). Is this what you call promoting basing or making the game more fun for anyone?

So, dear KrynetiX and next pub heads: I might not agree with all your decisions and some might be good as well as some might be bad. But as sole head of pub make a clear stand: Kill the lev from the game directly and remove a part which has been there for many years or let it be what it was. Messing around back and forth will not help anyone, especially not if nothing gets tested before and each change starts with a ton of bugs. Keep the game reliable and don't annoy me and others with a new shipset, buyset and map constantly. I seriously doubt any player likes having to get used to a new zone every time he tries to enter the known one.

well yes, some staff is utterly incompetent in using discretion to only go after overly-reckless or purposeful tk's. an ER told me once "if you kill one friendly ill ban you" (presumably getting a mod to do it).. so my ratio that session was probably i killed 30 enemies and 5 friendlies. So i tell redx i cant play lev right now (hes terring me) because some untrained <ER> is threatening to get a mod because i killed 5 friendlies and his position is the l3 lev isnt alllowed to friendly kill anyone even if you take 90% more enemies out.. LOL! utter stupidity. priitk is rolling over laughing at staff who think a tk'ing design lev isnt allowed to tk friendlies by design (accidentally or part of the process of gameplay).

Meanwhile i report wazaa, jamal and others for trying to tk on jav ship on my lt, and the mods watch them try to tk about 5 times and do NOTHING. literally you have a clear, intentional attemp to tk and nothing is done. The sheer stupidity is mind boggling. You punish for accidental tk's when you MADE THE SHIP TO TK as part of gameplay, and you see purposeful tk's and dont respond or watch it for 5 attempted tks and just do a warning or just watch it. What a joke. I blame upper leadership for this, not those staff. Its not their fault they have no brains and are retarded, its upper staff for hiring them or not training them properly.

And yes, i totally agree with you. I can accept bad decisions, good ones, or both. But I cannot stand 5-6 changes per year on the lev. I cant practice a lev whose settings change every 8 weeks and it alienates those who think they know what to expect day to day and enter and its downgraded heavily or upgraded again. Pick a damn setting and stick with it. Kill the lev or keep it strong decide.

[BooBiesYaY]

So I talked to many LT players, none of them was asked before experiments with them started once again, same goes for the weasel players. Actually nobody who plays pub really got asked if they want a total change of the game and what is going on really does change the whole game.

From the info I got from various staffers and players it is simply another "Demonic's non-pub friends whine => Demonic makes people leave the game again in favor of her friends who cannot play enough because they pissed people off from twd." and gets supported by even more non-pub players.

I also tried to find if the deans of staff have any say in this: no. My question there: Why?

Maybe this new experiment was inspired by too heavy complaints about levs? No, actually complaints about LTs and levs alike really got down to a minimum in pub before and basers frequently called for a LT on their team.

I tried asking about a dozen staffers about why the decision was made to promote extreme laming by totally overpowering a weasel and giving out a reward for the best spawn lev lamer and did not get a real answer so I have to think there simply is none. Also nobody could tell me why all ships but the lev can buy stuff in base. Especially with three entrances a few extra repels for your basing team's heavy defense would be nice but no. Instead we add game-destroying buys like flagsteal and strikebase and keep enabling and disabling them.

Also the punishment rules clearly go against levs. A teamkiller gets shiplocked very quickly, often even for accidental teamkills or some to save your teams base and flag. Do you know what a guy gets for spechunting a lev in spawn? 15 minutes of being specced. That is after they were freely spechunting for hours until someone feels like responding to cheater calls and then doesn't leave within 2 minutes of watching again.

Now to top it all staffers now have a requirement to play pub for so and so long each month. Did you look at what happens? Those who did not play pub before and now have to just mine the tubes, cloak in spawn, anti on roof or simply float around idle (asking them why usually results in "retards making me have to pub"). Is this what you call promoting basing or making the game more fun for anyone?

So, dear KrynetiX and next pub heads: I might not agree with all your decisions and some might be good as well as some might be bad. But as sole head of pub make a clear stand: Kill the lev from the game directly and remove a part which has been there for many years or let it be what it was. Messing around back and forth will not help anyone, especially not if nothing gets tested before and each change starts with a ton of bugs. Keep the game reliable and don't annoy me and others with a new shipset, buyset and map constantly. I seriously doubt any player likes having to get used to a new zone every time he tries to enter the known one.

you know how many times they did polls on the lev? mootland joined our chat to talk with us lt'ers in 2010. fis asked me personally (shes very nice) what i thought about her changes and to comment on the forum (i actually didnt mind them too much they were okay)... then only to find out all that is ignored and back to 5-6 more changes for the lev. how many times do you have to change the damn lev and make the same mistakes to know what will and wont work. I know its a hard job balancing things and I have some sympathy but enough of this. Pick something and stay with it for 2 years at least. You've done enough trial and error, tried every setting possible, have done extensive "research and development" you should know by now what will work and what wont. I will live with whatever decision is decided i dont care anymore. I'll just base terr, lt a little, or play dd's more, or play less.