Is Mythandir still staff? He needs immediate retraining.

[BooBiesYaY]

Okay, so yestarday "pagan chainsaw" tk's me and my friend TWICE while LT'ing. When I report it, a staff member (i forget but he was on paladen) shows up promptly and watches him and he stops doing it for some reason I guess he can spot staff.

So im not going to repeat a prior debate because everything been said and discussed already and its pointless to do it further.. however.. i'd just like to point out proof of the absurdity/lack of training of certain staff OR ex-staff.

Today, me and another lev are shooting at base. we are being as cautious as possible. My kill/TK ratio is probably 4 kills per every tk and im up to 200+ bty. I take a shot into the front of base, kill 2 enemies and 1 friendly, ie pagan.

Pagan states in team chat "newbie lt tking under base". Pagan is one of those people who thinks all tk'ing is illegal, and the designers shouldn't have created TK'ing which adds a level of double jeoporady basically to the game. The designers of TW, presumably, could've removed a TK'ing aspect but left it in for that basis, but pagan refuses to accept that, or the fact that attacking/helping attack a base is not a clean process with constant moving ships.

Now, again, im not going to discuss this again in detail because I think most non-idiots know the difference between a PURPOSEFUL tk, and one shot in the process of attacking base with no malice and trying to limit any possible tk's throughout the "run" or session.

Now, since Pagan tk's PURPOSEFULLY, i have black listed him for obvious reasons. Mythandir saw fit to rush to his aid in team chat and this is the basic exchange. This is somehow it went because i logged off before a copy/paste because frankly i didn't give a crap but i said why not post this to show how stupid some staff are.

Me> oh its that idiot pagan again, do you still think blind shots are the same as intentional tk's?
Mythandir> Actually blind would fall under a intentional TK because it shows the player is disregarding minimizing TK's (or something like that)
Me> actually thats one definition, but theres many ways to define a blind shot. Another would be that the LT just saw a ton of enemies in front of base, moves out of range for 1-2 seconds and fires, while a friendly might change his position and get caught.
Mythandir> That doesnt qualify..
Pagan> Careful kid, Mythandir gonna ban you son.


Okay, so basically, this is a blatant example of staff stupidity. Mythandir obviously doesnt even have a brain to realize that outside base, there are two or three sets of holes on each side (excluding roof) that are purposely constructed to be "blind shots". If the creators or map creators intended blind shots to be a "purposeful tk" as Mythandir stupidly states, they would not design holes specifically for LT's to shoot into outside radar LOL.

Furthermore, as I stated, im always a super careful LT. I have been LT'ing for 10 years or more. I don't have anything to gain from purposely maximizing casualties, I do my best. Im not always perfect but thats the design of double jeopardy as the creators put forth.

I guess the fact that Mythandir sided with a Purposeful TK'er who was on record of being reported yestarday, also irks me and the fact that he doesn't even know the difference between a purposeful and "part of the game/innocent" TK is astounding if hes still staff.

But then again, according to Mythandir, blind shots are purposeful TK's, so map creators who put holes in the sides of base outside for 15 years you better change it because Mythandir just made his new rule that contradicts the entire history of the game LOL.

[BooBiesYaY]

So mythandir, this toast is for you. With these 4 shots of jim beam devil's cut I just poured, I salute your lack of training. Cheers! (if your still staff that is) haha.

[BooBiesYaY]

And just for the record, I damn well know that a ton of blind shots could be construed as negligent, even if its not purposeful, but remember the context here. On my entire screen (max res) only the very lower portion of base was off screen, my Terr backed up 2 seconds and we just saw about 4 enemies and 0-1 friendlies. So remember that context.

As well, blind shots, by nature, are completely legal as stated. The holes are created just for that purpose! Unless its so egregious that it rises to negligence (ie during the entire session the LT kills nothing but friendlies many many times in a row without pausing or trying to adjust based on play)..

Again, you staff members need to stop this nonsense and focus banning intentional tker's. Again, for those with learning disabilities, the design of the game is to employ TK's as part of a high risk high reward ("double jeopardy") strategy. If you take a higher risk shot you may end up clearing base, but heck if it goes awry you might kill 2 friendlies or something.

You must make common sense judgements and define each situation properly. I maybe see 1-2 levs trying to tk on purpose every 6 months. On the contrary I see 100 sharks or javs trying to TK levs and others weekly.

[Morh]

Who the fuck is MytHANndir? I hope you are not mistaking him for MytHRAndir.

[BooBiesYaY]

Who the fuck is MytHANndir? I hope you are not mistaking him for MytHRAndir.

Yes MythRandir.

[Crescent Seal]

gandalf plays this game?

[Jones]

who is mythrandir does he even play twd

[Morh]

who is mythrandir does he even play twd

That is like asking if god goes to church.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

improve your lt skills so he can't tk you
and if it bothers u this much go to a private freq
i think lt's on pubfreqs just disrupt the flaggame

[BooBiesYaY]

improve your lt skills so he can't tk you
and if it bothers u this much go to a private freq
i think lt's on pubfreqs just disrupt the flaggame

I do play on priv about 1/2 the time, but with anti's range being so large and such a threat playing on pub has advantages when you can have other players defend you.

My LT skills don't need improvement, nor is that justification for any purposeful TK which is defined as illegal.

The Lev has been downgraded from L3 to L2 hasnt it. Whether you like that change or not depending who you ask, the effect is far less TK's and far less damage. And yet it seems people still have problems.


Only reason I brought up mythrandir is because im amazed he didn't even know the difference between a legit blind shot (which isnt reckless) and a purposeful TK. For any staff to not know the difference is noteworthy.

I mean if a LT takes a blind shot (which every single one does while playing) outside of base into the hole, or straight up the tube, is Mythrandir going to interpret that as an illegal TK under his definition and start getting mods involved? Will he in the future? Do any other mods interpret a "blind shot" like Mythrandir did? Thats the point here. I Think LT's have a right to know if all blind shots, under Mythrandir's interpretation are now illegal. Meaning any shot no within your exact sight could now be deemed an illegal TK..?

My interpretation of a illegal TK is any purposeful shot with the clear, recognizable intent to kill a friendly player (which would prompt a ban/warning depending on severity) OR in select times, the egregious negligence of killing dozens of team players without regard to taking "smart" shots, at least 10 shots or more this way (which would dprompt a warning/ask change ship).

[Morh]

On another note. Fuck levis! They should be removed or changed to a completely new ship.

[BooBiesYaY]

On another note. Fuck levis! They should be removed or changed to a completely new ship.

isn't that a lot like trying to cure symptoms rather than the illness? why not just eliminate all team damage from other teamates, if its possible to do so. maybe that should be the first vote of the new council.

thus, if the people who run this game do not truly want that added aspect of high risk/high reward shots or chance for team damage which makes the game more interesting via tk's from levs or javs or repped mines, just eliminate team damage entirely.

why take away a main ship people play when the root cause appears to be team damage. even if we isolate lt's or levs as the main ships which cause that damage, its the design of the game. you don't create a game which allows for team damage in certain situations, and then say "team damage is bad, none is acceptable".

we can argue varying degrees of team damage but with the L3 to L2 downgrade people seem to be unhappy until all team damage is eliminated entirely and turned into .?go base i guess with only team damage that results from pure basing type ships.

[Mythrandir]

I guess I should respond to this. You seem to be taking my definition of blind shots in a very specific way, misinterpret it and then write an insulting forum post. I'm not sure if you're even interested in hearing what I have to say. First of all, yes I am "staff", but I am irrelevant there when it comes to decision-making. So don't worry, whatever I say in public doesn't mean anything.

Regarding the issue at hand. I would define a blind shot as any shot where the shooter has no information on where he is going to shoot or what his bomb is going to hit. It is very possible to shoot bombs at targets off-screen based on an educated guess that only enemies should be there. A skilled lev can do this very well. The "perfect" lev player would never TK, each TK would be a mistake. Much like javs in pub - they do TK a lot - but the perfect jav would not TK. This is no different for levs. Is that such a radical position?
The rules reflect this. Occasionally staff will warn levs or jav who cause TKs by taking random shots at spots which they have no knowledge of. In addition, staff also responds to javs or levs who cause too many TKs by being extremely reckless.

Speaking of context. There was none for me. I just hopped in pub to practice some terring and saw some banter about blind shots which I felt like responding. I have no idea about what pagan is doing, or whether or not you were taking blind shots. Seeing that you care much about the topic, I'm sure you're a lev who hates to tk as much as I hate to tk when I'm being a dumbass in jav.

[BooBiesYaY]

I guess I should respond to this. You seem to be taking my definition of blind shots in a very specific way, misinterpret it and then write an insulting forum post. I'm not sure if you're even interested in hearing what I have to say. First of all, yes I am "staff", but I am irrelevant there when it comes to decision-making. So don't worry, whatever I say in public doesn't mean anything.

Regarding the issue at hand. I would define a blind shot as any shot where the shooter has no information on where he is going to shoot or what his bomb is going to hit. It is very possible to shoot bombs at targets off-screen based on an educated guess that only enemies should be there. A skilled lev can do this very well. The "perfect" lev player would never TK, each TK would be a mistake. Much like javs in pub - they do TK a lot - but the perfect jav would not TK. This is no different for levs. Is that such a radical position?
The rules reflect this. Occasionally staff will warn levs or jav who cause TKs by taking random shots at spots which they have no knowledge of. In addition, staff also responds to javs or levs who cause too many TKs by being extremely reckless.

Speaking of context. There was none for me. I just hopped in pub to practice some terring and saw some banter about blind shots which I felt like responding. I have no idea about what pagan is doing, or whether or not you were taking blind shots. Seeing that you care much about the topic, I'm sure you're a lev who hates to tk as much as I hate to tk when I'm being a dumbass in jav.

Several weeks ago I made a thread that a staff member (An ER or something) got on my case about misinterpreting what an intentional TK was and I made a thread about it, where left_eye was nice enough to respond and state that she would also take a look at the issue and try to make things clear to staff what truly is a intentional and part of play tk.

This isnt personal against you Myth, and I apologize if its taken that way due to how I wrote it. I like you Myth, i dont know you well and you seem nice, and when I address you in this thread, I do it as a rep of staff encountering a potential recurring problem in defining what a legal and illegal TK may be. While you are any staff, you also have to understand that in the context of pagan saying "hes gonna ban you son" and you stating what you interpet TW rules as, then you are in a position of authority and its not simply casual conversation or opinion really since you represent staff and are clearly stating your interpretation of TK rules while others are urging for bans for whatever reasons.

This argument is for perfecting trench wars, not trying to harm staff reputation, but preventing wrongful bans, arguments or fights between players and staff and so on. Because that would be the result of any misinterpretation between a legal TK and a intentional TK which must be judged with caution since intent must be discovered unbiasedly and with caution.

As I stated in prior threads, a TK cannot be considered "a mistake". If a LT or lev shoots into base, kills 6 enemies and clears base, but 2 shark friendlies (squishy ships) are caught in the process, while flag has 30 seconds left to grab.. that is not a "mistake". Its a judgement call to progress the team intent. Its NOT an "intentional" tk where theres nothing to gain from the TK, or done out of malice or intent to harm another without any benefit.

Likewise, "blind shots" (where educated guesses can be taken by LT's) existed outside of base since TW was created. The map designers implemented these holes specifically so LT's could take "blind shots" based on educated guesses. Their design is they reach certain areas that clump enemies or friendlies together to shoot at, thus the intent of these shots is 100% clear, to take educated guess shots to kill more enemies than friendlies. It would be absurd to think the designers intended for you to not take educated guesses or never kill a friendly.

Further, if any TK can be viewed as a "mistake" in any context, then remove that feature from the game. Presumably, the creators of this game intended TK's to both help and hurt a team depending on how utilized and in what situation. The creators cannot have meant for all TK's to be wrong or illegal as described in the advancing capturing flag example above where 2 sharks are killed clearing base. That is a moderate risk/high reward judgement call.

I define an intentional TK as follows. A team kill made which has no benefit other than disrupting play, harming teamates and/or is blatant and willful, for whatever reasons. Intentional TK's are often "revenge" or "having fun" at others expense.

I define a "blind shot" as, completely legal as long as there is no intent to committ an intentional TK (as defined above), so long as the blind shots are not so reckless as to kill teamates over and over without and clear benefit (at least 10 shots to be fair not 1 reckless blind shot). It would also be absurd to think the designers of this game expected LT's or levs to always shoot at things they can see on screen. Under this interpretation, a lev trying to green in center could not shoot outside his view which is impossible under any scenario since theres no walls or other things.

I define a "legal TK" as, any TK that is made with no malice or harm involved, which aims to target enemies, which includes blind shots (as described above) that aim to target enemies or assumed enemies based on guesstimation or actually seeing those enemies. A legal TK, overall, furthers the teams intent of killing enemies and trying to generall limit any casualties even though they are part of the game by design.

For the most part staff seems quite good in these matters but occasionally some staff doesn't get it and could cause issues between players. Even if 3 out of 30 staff get what a intentional TK is wrong, its too many in my opinion because we are talking about bans, ship bans, warnings, and other very punitive measures on players.

[BooBiesYaY]

I have no idea about what pagan is doing, or whether or not you were taking blind shots. Seeing that you care much about the topic, I'm sure you're a lev who hates to tk as much as I hate to tk when I'm being a dumbass in jav.

Pagan is a "revenge TKER". He will assume that any blind shot, or judgement call shot which brings about any TK as authorization to TK any LT on the team. He TK'ed me and H8me and another lev TWICE. This "revenge TK" is a common element of the game and must be disciplined immediately because its a highly egregious TK.

Picture how much time it takes for a lev on an LT to get over 300 bty nowdays with L2 bombs, only to have a revenge TK'er ruin your play then escape punishment. This goes on far too often and shows the lack of enforcement of true intentional TK's which impair play.

Staff should also not respond to TK reports where they can be recognized and thus the offender simply stops doing it until staff leaves. Thats a terribly inefficient process.

I know you don't like to TK intentionally, nor do I. I try to limit it as much as possible, but the above show areas of TW which need to be worked on.

My apologizes for making you the scapegoat for these issues or occasions where I feel staff wrongly defines the TK argument.